LGB R1 Point Issue

JimmyB

JimmyB

Learning; but slowly!
23 Feb 2018
912
395
64
Weston-super-Mare
#1
Started this in another thread, and suggestion was a thread of its own.

A couple of weeks ago my Bachmann Caboose kept de-railing going through a LGB R1 point, and lots of comments on B2B size and reverse curve etc, but at the time left it as it was. Earlier this week my Bachmann Lumber wagon was de-railing on a different R1 point, and initial thoughts suggested the wheel set was the issue.
When first set up I was sure that everything traversed all the routes in all direction, so why de-rail now, well I had changed to Bachmann metal wheels. I removed the metal wheels and replaced the plastic wheels, heh no problem.
So this morning I got down to take some photos:

This is the plastic wheel set, outside wheel flange hard against the check rail, and you will see the inside wheel is in the "frog well":


I then placed the metal wheel set in the same position, outside wheel flange hard against the check rail, and you will see the inside wheel is sitting on the frog:


So placing the wheel sets next to each other, though the B2B is within 0.5 mm of each other inner flange on one wheel to outer flange on the other wheel seems to be about 1.5 mm different (metal wheel being the larger size):


The issue does seem to be with the wheels and not the points, though I am sure R1 point don't help.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
21,275
2,467
Tamworth, Staffs.
#2
I am guessing if you push the metal wheel-set towards the outside, the offending wheel will drop into the frog?

Try a long strip of thin card, folded round the end of the check rail to make the gap a little narrower.. - There is a brass-strip made for R3 points, I believe??
This would prove if this would cure the problem, as I am assuming altering the metal wheel-set may be difficult?
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
22,954
3,092
North West Norfolk
#3
Started this in another thread, and suggestion was a thread of its own.

A couple of weeks ago my Bachmann Caboose kept de-railing going through a LGB R1 point, and lots of comments on B2B size and reverse curve etc, but at the time left it as it was. Earlier this week my Bachmann Lumber wagon was de-railing on a different R1 point, and initial thoughts suggested the wheel set was the issue.
When first set up I was sure that everything traversed all the routes in all direction, so why de-rail now, well I had changed to Bachmann metal wheels. I removed the metal wheels and replaced the plastic wheels, heh no problem.
So this morning I got down to take some photos:

This is the plastic wheel set, outside wheel flange hard against the check rail, and you will see the inside wheel is in the "frog well":


I then placed the metal wheel set in the same position, outside wheel flange hard against the check rail, and you will see the inside wheel is sitting on the frog:


So placing the wheel sets next to each other, though the B2B is within 0.5 mm of each other inner flange on one wheel to outer flange on the other wheel seems to be about 1.5 mm different (metal wheel being the larger size):


The issue does seem to be with the wheels and not the points, though I am sure R1 point don't help.
Ooh, that left had metal wheel doesn't look fully pressed onto the axle :shake::shake:
 
Ralphmp

Ralphmp

Registered
6 Jan 2010
749
176
Herts
#4
Beat me to it! I had a case of derail-its recently on stock that had previously never shown any issues and, on close inspection, it was being caused by a wheel that had shifted away from the fully pressed home position. Swapping the wheel set cred the problem. I did try to "squeeze" the offending wheel back to the correct position but only succeeded in making it even looser - no doubt as I don't have the correct squeezing device.

May be worth redoing your tests with a wheel set for one from a wagon that doesn't derail?
 
G-force1

G-force1

Prevarication Rules!
4 Aug 2015
3,072
1,152
North Middle Earth
#5
{Edited} I did try to "squeeze" the offending wheel back to the correct position but only succeeded in making it even looser - no doubt as I don't have the correct squeezing device.

May be worth redoing your tests with a wheel set for one from a wagon that doesn't derail?
I agree with 'try another (good) set', as the B2B of the point is unlikely to change, one has here to suspect the wheel-set itself. Looking closely at the photo the left-hand wheel does not look as if it is fully home and I suspect the difference will allow the wheel to drop into the frog.

As for the wheel being loose on the axle this can be fixed with a drop of Loctite. Push the wheel outwards, add the Loctite to the axle and push the wheel home again. Wait the prescribed time before testing. Loctite 601 should be good enough and it does creep a little.

Packing the opposite check-rail is another way to solve the problem.
 
Gavin Sowry

Gavin Sowry

Garden Railroader and Raconteur
27 Oct 2009
5,796
1,964
65
Hutt Valley, NZ
#6
Yep, been there, done that, got the T shirt.
Check the back to back. Once I still had 'wide gauge' on the wheelset, even though the wheels were pushed up hard against the spacer... solved by pulling off the wheel, and triming the spacer, then refitting the wheel of course. Sometimes, with R1's, I get the vice grips out, and squeeze the plastic checkrail closer to the stockrail. Also helps if there is no cant through the turnout, as negative cant will permit the high leg wheel to pick the frog point.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Learning; but slowly!
23 Feb 2018
912
395
64
Weston-super-Mare
#7
Many thanks for the responses, I bought two packs of 4 axles, and all eight are the same size within about 0.1 mm, checked them all with a digital vernier calliper.
Did try the wheels through a Piko R5 and the metal wheel fits fine, so its looks like it may be a R1 check rails issue, but before I start "repairing" anything (and causing more problems than solving), I need to get a B2B gauge, hopefully pick one up tomorrow at Llanfair.
 
ARIA31

ARIA31

Registered
3 Oct 2017
75
28
69
Toulouse - France
#8
Just in case this might help !!

104611_63d86838c60987d14ed5613794d4712b.jpg


Copyright Model Railroader magazine

I got yesterday some derailment on a R1 turnout, the solution is just to move the turnout
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,511
3,131
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#9
Many thanks for the responses, I bought two packs of 4 axles, and all eight are the same size within about 0.1 mm, checked them all with a digital vernier calliper.
Did try the wheels through a Piko R5 and the metal wheel fits fine, so its looks like it may be a R1 check rails issue, but before I start "repairing" anything (and causing more problems than solving), I need to get a B2B gauge, hopefully pick one up tomorrow at Llanfair.
Rhino and Ralph in Post 3 and 4 have both nailed the problem.

Using a vice put one of the axle ends in a gap small enough to let the axle through but not too large this anabling the vice to support the wheel itself. Put a pair of lumpy plers on the other end of the axle so that the axle end is in the pliers so that the wheel supports the main body of the pliers and a gentle tap to get rid of that gap at the Left end.

Bachmann wheels are notorious for not being put together properly. The most common issue is a gap in the middle plastic overlay that will cause the same problems that you have been having. First time I have seen that gap on the end, though the effect is clearly the same.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Learning; but slowly!
23 Feb 2018
912
395
64
Weston-super-Mare
#10
Well last night having got back from Llanfair (no R3/R5 points :() I looked to re-gauge the wheel. The wheels pushed hard against the spacer and tested by hand, and then refitted (taken off to fit the plastic wheels) to the wagons. The caboose seemed to work fine, and the lumber wagon initially derail (though differently :confused:), added some weight (real logs) and all seemed to be fine - then it was time to take SWMBO to diner!!