How would you advise someone converting to digital?

[Zerogee]

Are you *sure* you know the make of decoder in this loco? - I would start from there..

A U class is quite easy to get into, nowhere near as bad as (for example) a Stainz.... just whip a few screws out from beneath the side tanks and the cab, and you're in.
Then you can confirm exactly what you have in there, which would be a good start.

Jon.

 

[PhilP]

Are you indicating that if the decoder isn't Massoth or LGB, it won't work properly with my Navi?

It depends...

A navigator has to 'assume' it is talking to a Massoth decoder, so it 'does certain things' which may not quite be what the actual decoder wants. - The Navigator does not get the answer-back it expects, and so gives a 'something went wrong' response.

Aside:
Example is using the 'change address' function.. This not only changes CV1 (for a short address), but also writes to CV29 and CV49.. - This does not work with the newer Marklin / LGB decoders.

Also, 'we' trying to offer advice, are assuming it will be a LGB or Massoth decoder.. While there is a key set of 'core' CV's with defined functions, and a set of common values, there are other CV's 'we' assume do certain things, but they may not do what 'we' expect on a different manufacturers decoder.

 

[Deleted member 4232]

Moved

 

[RH Prague]

OK I can see that I will need to find out what decoder it has. Might be a few days before I can do that, though.

In the meantime I've tried to search for more info about the model, in particular when it might have been produced, in case that shed light on the serial/parallel question. I found this database which dates it to the year 2000. Assuming that's right (and it seems to fit with other snippets of info) it's not as old as I thought, so maybe it has a parallel interface after all? Mind you that database isn't 100% right as it confidently states the model comes with a decoder. But the LGB manual can be downloaded from there too, and that is the one I have, which states that it has a digital interface only...

 

[PhilP]

LGB did not always produce an updated manual for a decoder equipped model..
Well, so it appears from many I have seen??
If your copy has the fact it can be fitted with a decoder, and then gives a list of 'what does what' if it is, then that was considered sufficient.

 

[Zerogee]

LGB did seem to do some odd things in the early days of MTS... perhaps the version of your loco sold separately just had the decoder interface (hence the statements in the manual) but those put into the ZB sets got a "bonus" factory-fitted decoder?

I have a 28001 "Rugen" 0-8-0, which was supposed to be supplied with serial sound and a Direct Decoder interface but no decoder fitted... yet mine is in a box labelled "28001.8" is is stickered as factory-chipped.

As far as I am aware, the first MTS products came out around 1998-99, with the first-generation 55020 decoder and the MTS1 system with the "mouse" controller, and the much better 55021 was then introduced around the same time as MTSII in 2002/3.

Jon.

 

[KentKeith]

Hello RH,

Just to confirm we are talking about the LGB 20705 Zillertalbahn Sammler Collector Edition containing Raimund plus two 2-axle and one 4-axle coaches.

Assuming we are, I purchased one of these sets pre-owned from Garden Railway Specialists a few years ago. I've just been looking at the box and the label is marked "sound" with a separate sticker marked "DIGITAL 1". I'll try and post a picture of the label later.

What intrigues me is that after I had purchased the set it was sent away and has another label added by Hobbybahn (now defunct following the sad passing of the owner) which indicates that a Massoth XLS sound decoder has been fitted. Whatever happened to the original sound system that came with the loco I cannot recall.

All I can assume is that this set was released very early in the dcc sound era and what was originally fitted in the loco was deemed by Hobbybahn to be "not fit for purpose"

Maybe to get yours working properly the purchase of a Massoth XLS sound decoder would, over the long term, be the best option to consider.

 

[KentKeith]

Think that Jon and I are on the same wavelength.....

 

[PhilP]

Does the box have 'Sound' or 'Electronise' (might be 'z' not 's') in a sloping font?
If so, this was not really a very good sound offering at all!

 

[RH Prague]

Guys

Here's the (only) label on my box.

Yes we are all talking about the same set. (And btw as far as I can discover this loco was only ever released in this set. According that database, 800 sets were produced)

I see no sign of the separate Digital1 sticker on mine. I bought it off eBay from a German seller. I doubt he was the owner, he looks like one of those prodigious amateur traders specialising in LGB. But whoever it was, invested a bit. It came looking almost new, yet someone had still installed the coaches with lighting and "high quality" passengers. I would also say the sound itself is fine, pretty much as good as my Rugen 28003, and the loco runs better than my 21711 ZB U. I haven't tried seeing what happens to smoke yet in the digital set-up, on analogue it smoked well

I'd be ready to install a Massoth decoder if that's what it needs, but all in all I think you are all right, it would be good to know what's in there now, not least so we can learn why it isn't currently delivering the full digital Monty.

 

[KentKeith]

RH,

That is the label that appears on my box. Mine also came with a special booklet (not the normal type instruction booklet) which summarizes the digital electronic sound features:
- synchronized steam chuffs
- bell and whistle sounds
- brake sounds (with Multi-Train System)
- auxiliary blower, safety valve and steam sounds
- coal shoveling sounds
- conductor announcement (with Multi-Train System)
- volume control
- remote control of sound features (with Multi-Train System)

Under the Multi-Train System part of the booklet it says:

This model has a direct coder interface. For MTS operation it can be equipped with one LGB MTS Decoder (55020)

The booklet then gives some "hints":
- some sounds cannot operate simultaneously, auxiliary blower, safety valve, coal shoveling, conductor announcement, feedwater pump and brake sounds can only operate consecutively. For example, you cannot trigger the conductor announcement while you hear the standing sounds.
- if this model is equipped with a decoder the digital/analog DIP switches on the loco circuit board must be set to off. The DIP switches should remain in this setting, even if the models are used on an analog layout.

So, as supplied, it seems to have sound which runs without a decoder. Stick a decoder in it and you can run on MTS.

Hope the above helps. I can now understand why Hobbybahn installed a Massoth XLS decoder in mine.

 

[Zerogee]

This seems to confirm it, as supplied from the factory the set had a serial mode digital sound board that would operate on DC or DCC, but did not come with a decoder fitted. Any decoder in the loco will have been an aftermarket fitting by a dealer or owner. It will most likely be a 55020 if it was done when the set was originally sold, or if fitted later it MIGHT be a 55021.

Jon.

 

[PhilP]

IF a 55020, then it will only do 14 speed-steps..
Do the lights go on/off as you change the speed?
You can try 'pulsing' the F1 key a number of times to get other sounds.. - Serial send F1 a number of times, hence the delay on sounds.

That was the logo I was trying to describe..

 

[RH Prague]

I only had time to look at it briefly this afternoon, but I currently have it configured on 28 step parallel, and the lights perform faultlessly, and the loco seems to be responding to each of the 28 steps. I tried the pulsing FI trick, but it did not seem to react.

 

[RH Prague]

I only had time to look at it briefly this afternoon, but I currently have it configured on 28 step parallel, and the lights perform faultlessly, and the loco seems to be responding to each of the 28 steps. I tried the pulsing FI trick, but it did not seem to react.

So I have finally established that it is fitted with a Massoth e Motion L chip. Only buttons 1 and 9 on my Navigator activate anything.

Now that we know that, does anyone have any thoughts on how it can be made to activate the other sounds via the Navigator keyboard?

 

[muns]

Can you provide the values of CV29 (DCC Configuration) and CV49 (Massoth Configuration Register) ?

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Sure sounds like serial mode

 

[Deleted member 4232]

Moved

 

[RH Prague]

Just out of academic curiosity, how did you discover that it is a Massoth eMotion L decoder?

Someone discovered it for me There is a guy who does general repair work for my nearest model railway shop. Neither are G scale specialists, but he charges very little, think it is basically his hobby. Well, I had asked him to check what decoder might be in Raimund. In his note, after identifying the decoder, he has written this: (011450(00971)). What is the signficance of that? It would not perchance be the answer to muns question above re CV values? (if not, trying to establish those values will be my first venture into the CV world, so please bear with me.)

Greg Elmassian Re your suggestion that it has a serial interface, the thing is that I have it configured on my Navigator on 28P, and it runs perfectly, responding to the speed steps, and the lights don't flicker. I understood that a serial interface configured that way would have problems with the lights. And I told my repair guy that I had it configured that way, so I assume he has tested that.

 

[muns]

Someone discovered it for me There is a guy who does general repair work for my nearest model railway shop. Neither are G scale specialists, but he charges very little, think it is basically his hobby. Well, I had asked him to check what decoder might be in Raimund. In his note, after identifying the decoder, he has written this: (011450(00971)). What is the signficance of that? It would not perchance be the answer to muns question above re CV values? (if not, trying to establish those values will be my first venture into the CV world, so please bear with me.)

Greg Elmassian Re your suggestion that it has a serial interface, the thing is that I have it configured on my Navigator on 28P, and it runs perfectly, responding to the speed steps, and the lights don't flicker. I understood that a serial interface configured that way would have problems with the lights. And I told my repair guy that I had it configured that way, so I assume he has tested that.

Those values do not mean anything to me, I would suspect one is a serial number. Did he open the loco to find out?

In any case, to be sure that it is an eMotion L, the following CVs should be:

CV8 = 123 Manuf. ID - Massoth
CV255 = 130 Massoth Decoder type (eMotion L)

I am suspecting that the sound card requires what is called a "Serial Pulse Chain" output from the decoder to trigger sounds. This is achieved via Output 1 on the decoder (which on the L is labelled F1). To operate "Sound 3" the F1 output is pulsed 3 times, the sound card recognises this and plays sound 3, likewise to play sound 1, F1 is only pulsed once.

Now, just to confuse things, the decoder can accept commands in both parallel and serial form. In serial form, the Function 1 command is sent multiple times to the decoder and the decoder acts upon the number of Function 1 commands received (in a similar way to the sound board with the F1 output). In parallel form, only one command is sent to the decoder indicating the function required. You set you Navigator up to send the commands to the decoder in Parallel or Serial form.


Some decoders, including Massoth ones, have a feature that will generate the "Serial Pulse Chain" on output F1. This will cause the F1 output to be pulsed for every function command that is received. For Massoth decoders it is configured within the Massoth Configuration register (bit 3 of CV49). Hopefully, enabling this will resolve your issues.