How would you advise someone converting to digital?

[RedRoc]

However...@KentKeith mentioned something possibly important, namely the programming track. I think my guy who supplied and installed the system for me selected a programme track. He configured "Raimund" which is running happily. I configured the Rugen myself, but maybe I had it by coincidence on the same piece of track. But what is a programming track, typically? In what way would it be isolated from the rest of the track?

Keith/Jon

What works for one may not work for another as we all know. For myself I prefer to plug in what I need for each session. This way I can not muddle myself between programming/Running Massoth/Running CS2 and it also precludes damage from power surges e.g. lightning.

I notice the OP appears to have solved his issues. However, for those who may still like a step-by-step guide, below are screen shots of the relevant pages in my self written SHSB Operations Manual. Remember, this is not how it should be done, it's just how I do it.



Finally, I Add the Loco Number and Image/Icon to the master Loco Number allocation and record the decoder settings/details in the relevant Loco notes (laminated for use outside) and place a decoder identity number/details label on the decoder.





Robert

 

[dunnyrail]

Jon,

As I mentioned in my earlier post I keep things simple. As far as I'm concerned doing what you have done is not keeping things simple for exactly the reason you mention - you can forget to reset the switch. Suggesting things such as this only confuses things.

Possibly so Keith but when you have big Locomotives that need some DCC Cv's changing it is easier to have that connected track to drive the loco onto it for updates. No problems so long as one remembers the routine.

Typically the Programming Track would be separated (both rails isolated) from the Main Track Electrically with a DPDT Switch that will change that piece of track (usually the end of a specific siding) from Prog to Main. The wires from the back of your Massoth have 4 Track Connections 2 are for the Programming Track and the other two are for the main. Thus the main ones are split with two wires to the DPDT the other to the rest of the layout the prog ones also to the dpdt with the central contacts to the prog track.

Hopefully the following diagram should make clear the wiring where one set of wires goes to the main layout and the other the programming track. Note that the programming track is switched between the main line and programming mide via the dpdt (double pole souble throw) switch. It is also probably beneficial to have the switch so that it has a Centre Off Mode this being a dpdtco switch.

 

[RH Prague]

Right, thanks to all, I am making some progress here. More questions

1. This is fairly inconsequential of itself but the answer will probably help me understand configuring better. When i "successfully" configured the Rugen and the OBB diesel yesterday, I have still ended up with a couple of very odd names for them, which is obviously some legacy of my earlier mistake. So in the Rugen case, I entered "Rugen" but have ended up with "RugenClean" -obviously something to do with the trackcleaning loco, and in the diesel's case I entered 2095, but have "20955955". Doh!. And in this case I entered the wrong picture too, it's the Harz Camel, I think.
How did that happen, how do I correct them, can I do that without returnign them to the programming track?
2. Currently on the Central Station info window, it shows 2 active locos. However only one loco is on the track, and I have a total of 4 configured. Why is this, does it indicate some problem?
3. I have a second throttle charged up but it does not show the newly configured locos. I thought that somehow the central station shares the info with all live throttles (something like a wi-fi based synch of my various Apple machines). Not the case? Do I have to separately configure each loc to each throttle?

Got some more "advanced" questions too, but I need to get myself sorted with the questions above before tackling them, so I will keep those questions separate.

Thanks!

 

[RH Prague]

So, moving on to understanding the various things we can control with the digital throttes...

1. Really appreciated (edit) RedRoc 's post above where it set out which buttons control what. Checked my Rugen, and all the sound controls there corresponded to his Harz. But would a loco with a Massoth chip have a different list? If so where can i find it?

2. I've looked at The Dummies Guide to Massoth CV's thread. But being a superdummy, I did not get from it how I actually access the CVs. If I wanted to adjust CV4, braking time, how would i do that, step by step, on my Dimax throttle? (and do I need the loco on the programming track)?

Again, thanks, so much appreciated.

 

[Gizzy]

@ RedRoc. I've just been on a Massoth course and your instructions are so much better.

Do you have them in a .docx or .pdf format please....

 

[muns]

1. This is fairly inconsequential of itself but the answer will probably help me understand configuring better. When i "successfully" configured the Rugen and the OBB diesel yesterday, I have still ended up with a couple of very odd names for them, which is obviously some legacy of my earlier mistake. So in the Rugen case, I entered "Rugen" but have ended up with "RugenClean" -obviously something to do with the trackcleaning loco, and in the diesel's case I entered 2095, but have "20955955". Doh!. And in this case I entered the wrong picture too, it's the Harz Camel, I think.
How did that happen, how do I correct them, can I do that without returnign them to the programming track?

​

No, this is a feature of the Navigator and not the decoder so you do not need to put the loco on the programming track. You only need use the programming track to change CVs in the decoder in the loco.

To change the Navigator loco configuration...

• Select the required loco (M2, loco id, M3),
• Then Hold down M3 until you get the "Speedsteps" screen.
• Repeatedly press OK (M3) until you get to the Picture screen.
• Select the correct picture and press OK (M3). You should then see the "Loconame" screen.
• Use the "Right (& Left) buttons to move the flashing cursor to a character you wish to change and rotate the dial to select the replacement (do delete turn the dial fully to the left so that the character is blank), repeat until you have corrected the name, then press OK (M3).
• Then press OK (M2) to save the changes for next time. If you press Temp (M3) the changes you made will revert back when you switch the Navi back on next time.

​

2. Currently on the Central Station info window, it shows 2 active locos. However only one loco is on the track, and I have a total of 4 configured. Why is this, does it indicate some problem?

​

No, there is no problem. An Active loco is a loco that the Central Station is sending commands to. Normally it is because you have them selected on a handset or have had them selected. The CS does not know that you have taken one of them off the track!

​

3. I have a second throttle charged up but it does not show the newly configured locos. I thought that somehow the central station shares the info with all live throttles (something like a wi-fi based synch of my various Apple machines). Not the case? Do I have to separately configure each loc to each throttle?

The Central station does not store the name or the picture details.

 

[RH Prague]

Afternoon folks and a hope the weather where you are is as glorious as it is here.

In this post I just want to report that now that I am slowly getting to grips with everything, I am really pleased i went digital. For me the big difference is quality of running. There is no contest with analogue. So much more precise control, plus the automatic compensation on gradients. For me, one of the great pleasures is having them run at a suitably slow speed, and stopping in an authentic way. Any vagaries in running caused by dirty track or poor contacts have disappeared. Frankly, in this respect it has exceeded my expectations.

So thanks for the advice so far, much appreciated. I will I am sure want to tap your collective brains more - indeed a question re one of my locos coming up, but I just want to report that I am converted!

 

[RH Prague]

So my question for today is re my ZB U class, Raimund, from the collector set (20705). When running, sound is all there, but it only responds to one specific sound command on my Navigator, , button no.1 sounds the whistle, plus the lighting button, that works. All the others, nothing.

Any idea what might be the issue and how to tackle it?

 

[Zerogee]

So my question for today is re my ZB U class, Raimund, from the collector set (20705). When running, sound is all there, but it only responds to one specific sound command on my Navigator, , button no.1 sounds the whistle, plus the lighting button, that works. All the others, nothing.

Any idea what might be the issue and how to tackle it?

Is the loco old enough that it might have a serial sound board in it? When you do the loco configuration set-up on the Navigator, try setting it to 14 speed steps and "S" for Serial mode rather than "P" for parallel. Save it as a temporary config and see if it works.

Jon.

 

[martenola59]

Hello all,

I have just stumbled across this thread and have quite enjoyed reading.
Some robust discussion and reading various points of view.
Good to see that RH has jumped in and is content with his DCC choice, and is becoming confident with its use and setup.

I just wanted to relate my DCC story.
I jumped into G Scale back in 2003 with a LGB starter set as many have done and slowly expanded adding track and locos. I realised that within a year I wanted to have better control of my trains. After looking at the LGB DCC options, I was not overly impressed. I have an electrical/electronics back ground so went looking elsewhere.
After much research I opted for a V3.5 Lenz system (later updated to V3.6) which I still have today with 3 boosters. I have also added a wireless Massoth Navigator, various branded locos with decoders including LGB, Bachmann, and NCE, the latest LGB loco now have a Trix decoder in them. Function decoders that are Lenz, DCC Concepts and Massoth that control points and lighting features. The Lenz system is also connected to a computer network via the Lenz network interface.
I was asked by a new club member Simon, about a year ago to assist with the digitisation of his railway with full computer control, after other club members referred him my direction. We discussed his requirements and it was certainly was beyond my experience at the time. I agreed and we are still working on his mission as the scope creeps ever larger.
This is where I agree with RH for his choice of the Massoth Dimax system. I recommended this to Simon and if I was starting again today would go with this option that was not available in 2004.
I was using the JMRI software for computer point control with no feedback. We are now working on the additional computer control of our railways including feedback for train tracking. Simon is funding the R&D and we opted for the TrainController Silver software currently. This also enables control with smart phones or tablet PC over WiFi to the home network using the addition of the +SmartHand software add on.

This is more than RH and many others would require for their trains operation. As mentioned in posts above we are all individuals with our own choices in train control but my preference has been DCC and the many control options it enables. I have been learning along the way and have been challenged in several aspects of the DCC setup but have usually been able to get most things nutted out.

Thank you for all your inputs and opinions as we enjoy our hobby
Best regards
Martin King
http://www.lgbofoz.org.au/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX_ST2jYmEZgexaxMuWOmvg

 

[LGeoB]

Hello all,

I have just stumbled across this thread and have quite enjoyed reading.
Some robust discussion and reading various points of view.
Good to see that RH has jumped in and is content with his DCC choice, and is becoming confident with its use and setup.

I just wanted to relate my DCC story.
I jumped into G Scale back in 2003 with a LGB starter set as many have done and slowly expanded adding track and locos. I realised that within a year I wanted to have better control of my trains. After looking at the LGB DCC options, I was not overly impressed. I have an electrical/electronics back ground so went looking elsewhere.
After much research I opted for a V3.5 Lenz system (later updated to V3.6) which I still have today with 3 boosters. I have also added a wireless Massoth Navigator, various branded locos with decoders including LGB, Bachmann, and NCE, the latest LGB loco now have a Trix decoder in them. Function decoders that are Lenz, DCC Concepts and Massoth that control points and lighting features. The Lenz system is also connected to a computer network via the Lenz network interface.
I was asked by a new club member Simon, about a year ago to assist with the digitisation of his railway with full computer control, after other club members referred him my direction. We discussed his requirements and it was certainly was beyond my experience at the time. I agreed and we are still working on his mission as the scope creeps ever larger.
This is where I agree with RH for his choice of the Massoth Dimax system. I recommended this to Simon and if I was starting again today would go with this option that was not available in 2004.
I was using the JMRI software for computer point control with no feedback. We are now working on the additional computer control of our railways including feedback for train tracking. Simon is funding the R&D and we opted for the TrainController Silver software currently. This also enables control with smart phones or tablet PC over WiFi to the home network using the addition of the +SmartHand software add on.

This is more than RH and many others would require for their trains operation. As mentioned in posts above we are all individuals with our own choices in train control but my preference has been DCC and the many control options it enables. I have been learning along the way and have been challenged in several aspects of the DCC setup but have usually been able to get most things nutted out.

Thank you for all your inputs and opinions as we enjoy our hobby
Best regards
Martin King
http://www.lgbofoz.org.au/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX_ST2jYmEZgexaxMuWOmvg

Hi Martin,

Nice to see Lenz equipment being used. I use a V3.6 command station with a booster (was a command station but the present part failed so I removed the top board making it a booster). I use the ethernet interface, use to use JMRI but now mainly use old iPhones with touchcab because I like the way it handles turnouts. I've dabbled in Arduino interfaces to Xpressnet and DCC - all good fun. I use a variety of decoders, even using TCS ones for small 0-4-0 engines - not had one fail yet. I've also used Navigators with the Xpressnet/Loconet Massoth RC device. However, I have managed to blow up three of these RC devices and I can't work out why! Everything else appears bomb proof. All Massoth advised is not ouse toroidal transformers. I've blown them on DCC Concepts 18 volt power supplies, Altronics switch mode bench top PSUs for the Lenz equipment, and even when using a separate 12 volt supply for the devices. Any ideas, what PSUs do you power your Lenz stuff with? BTW I did electronic engineering at Uni but went to the dark side - computer science and artificial intelligence. I'm getting back into EE now I've retired.

PS if I can't sort out the issue, I'll have a couple of Navigators to dispose of!

Geoff

 

[martenola59]

Hi Geoff

Nice to hear that someone else is using the Lenz system. Touch wood I have not blown up any of the Massoth gear. The only real issue that I have with my Navigator is that it will not control locos with an extended address. The PC or my LH100 will do extended addresses OK but not the Navigator. I have taken the Navigator to friends layouts that use the Dimax central station and it will control the extended address locos there OK. Must be something to do with interfacing, not a big issue for me until some visited my layout and their loco which had an extended address.
My power system is based on a large 300VA toroidal transformer nominal 18Vac output that supplies the central station and 2 boosters, as I run my system on a nominal 19Vdcc to the track. I am currently changing this out after reading a few articles that it is best to keep all power sections separate. I am going to install individual switch mode DC supplies to each booster set at about 21Vdc The 4th booster is currently supplied with DC supply this way. These future changes are coming about since going down the feedback control route and finding that I would think that some devices don't like the induced higher voltages that are about 80Vac in some cases. I did have some issues for a while with system tripping out after running for about 30 minutes or so. I eventually tracked that down to an errant screw that had shorted a rail line to ground intermittently.
I am using the Lenz LR101 feedback units which can be supplied from the track. This has caused some grief as the supply input rating is only for about 12 to 16Vac. When the track voltage is approx 36Vp-p it has shorted out some diodes in the input circuitry. I was able to replace these diodes (part of the input bridge, unit can be supplied with AC or DC) and then decided that to keep things in check by now keeping them supplied with 12Vdc. Also there is some crossover in the track supply districts for the occupancy detectors which may have caused some earth loops. System works fine 99.5% of the time but occasionally there is a quick trip out and reset in less than a second which I have not tracked down as yet. This has been happening when a track sensor reports to the system that a train is present and not always the same sensor.
I hope this can enlighten you, maybe it is a bit of a waffle but hope there is some information here for you. FYI, my electrical background started as a licenced electrician which I still have, industrial electronics and TV servicing before finally completing my engineering diploma. I have spent most of my working life looking after CCTV systems in a large iron and steel plant with many changes in technology there, just as in the model railway hobby.

Best regards
Martin

 

[idlemarvel]

...Any ideas, what PSUs do you power your Lenz stuff with?...

I use a bench power supply, regulated DC. The unit in question is from maplins, which is UK and soon to be defunct. It has 100VA output, and you can vary the output voltage up to 21v. I has a digital current output reading which is very useful for letting you know how much power you are using.
I am very happy with my Lenz equipment.

 

[RH Prague]

Is the loco old enough that it might have a serial sound board in it? When you do the loco configuration set-up on the Navigator, try setting it to 14 speed steps and "S" for Serial mode rather than "P" for parallel. Save it as a temporary config and see if it works.

Jon.

I thought you might be on the money here, because it might be pretty old. It has made in "Western" Germany on the underside. However I did the reconfig as you suggested. No change in working functions. The only change is that in the 28P config, if I press say button 5, the no 5 on the screen turns black. In 14S mode, whichever button I pressed, just no 1 on the screen flashed.

Another odd thing is that in the Navigator manual it says "Important Note: Locomotives configured with 14 speed steps will have a strange light behaviour (flashing), when operated with 28 speed steps. Locomotives configured with 28 speed steps but operated with 14 speed steps will also show a wrong light function"

Well I am not sure if this Massoth-speak is relevant, but my point is that whether configured 28P or 14S, the lights function perfectly correctly.

It's also slightly odd that in the manual for the loco (actually the sammler set) it speaks of "IF this model is decoder equipped you can control its sounds with the MTS" . However I assume a decoder is installed because there is a "direct decoder" sticker on the underside, and also button 1 of the Nav operates the whistle OK (I assume that's evidence of the presence of a decoder?")

Any further thoughts, guys?

 

[LGeoB]

I use a bench power supply, regulated DC. The unit in question is from maplins, which is UK and soon to be defunct. It has 100VA output, and you can vary the output voltage up to 21v. I has a digital current output reading which is very useful for letting you know how much power you are using.
I am very happy with my Lenz equipment.

Yes I really like Lenz stuff as well. Hard to break and the protocols used are published enabling you to build your own interfaces etc.

 

[idlemarvel]

I have not found the need for any Massoth gear. I use Lenz PC interface, feedback module and reverse loop module. LDT do a nice current detection module which works with RS protocol, and TouchCab provides a wireless smartphone throttle and accessory controller. One you understand the Lenz CV editor it is a reasonable alternative to JMRI decoderpro. What else would you need?

 

[Zerogee]

I thought you might be on the money here, because it might be pretty old. It has made in "Western" Germany on the underside. However I did the reconfig as you suggested. No change in working functions. The only change is that in the 28P config, if I press say button 5, the no 5 on the screen turns black. In 14S mode, whichever button I pressed, just no 1 on the screen flashed.

Another odd thing is that in the Navigator manual it says "Important Note: Locomotives configured with 14 speed steps will have a strange light behaviour (flashing), when operated with 28 speed steps. Locomotives configured with 28 speed steps but operated with 14 speed steps will also show a wrong light function"

Well I am not sure if this Massoth-speak is relevant, but my point is that whether configured 28P or 14S, the lights function perfectly correctly.

It's also slightly odd that in the manual for the loco (actually the sammler set) it speaks of "IF this model is decoder equipped you can control its sounds with the MTS" . However I assume a decoder is installed because there is a "direct decoder" sticker on the underside, and also button 1 of the Nav operates the whistle OK (I assume that's evidence of the presence of a decoder?")

Any further thoughts, guys?

B*gger, I thought that might have been the answer for you... sorry it wasn't. The "1" on the Navvy flashing multiple times in "S" (Serial) mode is normal, I think, because what it is doing is sending a rapid series of just one command pulse, which is the way the old serial system worked. Your last paragraph, about the loco itself, indicates that it was NOT equipped with a decoder as a factory fit, hence the "direct decoder" sticker - this sticker doesn't mean there is a decoder in there, simply that to add one, the buyer only had to plug one directly into the interface on the loco board. As sold, the loco was probably for analogue (DC) running, but with a factory-fit sound board that would work on DC or DCC.
However the fact that your loco responds to DCC control means that at some point, somebody must have fitted a decoder to it - otherwise you'd only be able to run it with your Massoth gear on address "0".

I'm surprised by the fact that you say the lights work fine irrespective of whether you have the config set up for 14 or 28 steps.... in my experience that shouldn't happen......

Jon.

 

[RH Prague]

B*gger, I thought that might have been the answer for you... sorry it wasn't. The "1" on the Navvy flashing multiple times in "S" (Serial) mode is normal, I think, because what it is doing is sending a rapid series of just one command pulse, which is the way the old serial system worked. Your last paragraph, about the loco itself, indicates that it was NOT equipped with a decoder as a factory fit, hence the "direct decoder" sticker - this sticker doesn't mean there is a decoder in there, simply that to add one, the buyer only had to plug one directly into the interface on the loco board. As sold, the loco was probably for analogue (DC) running, but with a factory-fit sound board that would work on DC or DCC.
However the fact that your loco responds to DCC control means that at some point, somebody must have fitted a decoder to it - otherwise you'd only be able to run it with your Massoth gear on address "0".

I'm surprised by the fact that you say the lights work fine irrespective of whether you have the config set up for 14 or 28 steps.... in my experience that shouldn't happen......

Jon.

Jon, yes I was very hopeful too that you had cracked it, when I saw signs of its vintage. Yes, the instruction manual says it has a digital interface, but clearly implies that a decoder must be fitted by the user. But again, as you say it must have one; and yes, the lights...I will double check that again tonight, but I checked that carefully as I too was surprised given the explicit if slightly gauche Massoth-speak warning.


Should I perhaps open this question up as a separate thread relating to this loco? I would be surprised if somebody else hasn't got this model.

 

[PhilP]

Are you *sure* you know the make of decoder in this loco? - I would start from there..

 

[RH Prague]

Are you *sure* you know the make of decoder in this loco? - I would start from there..

I am sure I don't know. I bought the entire set on eBay, beginning of last year, and didn't pay much attention to whether or not it had a decoder. Funny enough I see that there is another thread entitled "reading a decoder' but I fear its a bit above my pay grade at present (and opening up to take a look is a whole different world!) I guess I will wait until my dealer returns with my newly chipped locos and ask him to take a look.

Are you indicating that if the decoder isn't Massoth or LGB, it won't work properly with my Navi?