Zincpest............... The real 701 was killed in 2021 is my new model going the same way in 2024

[DickyC]

Now, This has been an interesting short journey so far. As motioned in my post last week looking for documentation (HERE) I purchased at auction a rather unusual loco, A Kiss Modellbahn Rhb 701 after admiring them at the Llangollen show on several stands. This loco was of particular interest to me as im a member of the Swiss Railway Society and had "with sadness" read of its demise at the junkyard in 2021, the beast had fallen.... was my model about to fall too ? (really interesting project on this loco and its sisters at the link below image.)


CREDIT and History of the 701

I like to strip down anything I buy and get to its workings, I managed to get the Massoth XPS decoder working and discovered some short circuits, which was a know problem due to the metal axels so the stripdown started.... It was during this process I noticed "odd" buckling and the paint flaking on the chassis/body plate and something just didnt seam right so more came off than expected.

Well it was at this point I noticed hairline cracks in the articulated joints in the middle.. I didnt like this so "handled with care" but on further inspection I realised this was fatal so after a quick blow to the sides it came apart to reveal some awful looking metal corrosion. DEAD LOCO !



Was this the end of my £500 ! this is a lot more than any loco I had purchased before so was a little despondent, so took to the Tinternet and found this long thread....

Defective base plate Kiss Ge 6/6 II

Now im sure the wise and wonderful of this forum will say, "arh yes I know about this from 2014" but I only bought my first loco in 2020 after admiring my fathers LGB for 10 years and using his spares on my own little circular layout so didnt keep up with the going on, let along only really discovering KISS this year.. After reading the 33 pages of this thread (im a catholic so should have stayed away from any loco with 6/6 and 33 occurring with them so much !)I discovered no answer, Kiss had started to develop a new baseplate but this never came about and then Kiss split and disappeared. From this I leaned about Zink failure in Diecasts and this particular series from Kiss suffered big problems, It was estimated that it had occurred on 150 locos that had been sold.. The thread ended with no answer... more googling took place and discovered this Zinkpest und Kunststoffschwund Kiss Topline which offered more hope but also pointed out problems with other locos and with the axels.

But, maybe some light... this helped my discover LGB.ch where I am currently ordering a new bepoke Baseplate ! that has been created by Heiner ! The gearbox's looks great as do the plastic elements, fittings and paintwork etc so this is worth saving but so begins a project of "restoration" I was not expecting to undertake...... Watch this forum space as they say, It all fails it must just become a nice "shelf" loco.

 

[PhilP]

I posted a VW Drasine, several weeks ago, which the chassis was changing shape and slowly disintegrating.
So you are not alone.

PhilP

 

[rhaetianfan]

Interesting post, DickyC, and sad seeing 701 in the process of being broken up.

I have a couple of KISS locos, a Gem4/4 and a Ge4/4 I. Compared to LGB they are a bit fragile, although well detailed. The Ge4/4 I suffered a damaged snowplough/front skirt some time ago but when I emailed KISS and asked about a replacement they told me that they didn't do spare parts. It shouldn't be too difficult to 3D print a new one, when I can persuade my son to do so.

In terms of zinc deterioration, I haven't suffered it on any of my G Scale locos but several OO gauge UK diesel models by Hornby and Heljan from the early 2000s suffered badly. One class 47 expanded so much that the whole body split:



The front one just split down the front corner seam. Fairly spectacular failures, from locos kept in a display cabinet!

M

 

[DickyC]

Interesting post, DickyC, and sad seeing 701 in the process of being broken up.

I have a couple of KISS locos, a Gem4/4 and a Ge4/4 I. Compared to LGB they are a bit fragile, although well detailed. The Ge4/4 I suffered a damaged snowplough/front skirt some time ago but when I emailed KISS and asked about a replacement they told me that they didn't do spare parts. It shouldn't be too difficult to 3D print a new one, when I can persuade my son to do so.

In terms of zinc deterioration, I haven't suffered it on any of my G Scale locos but several OO gauge UK diesel models by Hornby and Heljan from the early 2000s suffered badly. One class 47 expanded so much that the whole body split:
M

very interesting, yes it seams to be a problem with impurities in the diecast, FYI, have you seen this.... as im ordering anyway PM me if you want me to get you one also.

Ge 4/4 I Ge 6/6 II

 

[DickyC]

UP DATE ON THIS AFTER 2 YEARS.... I have too many projects !

So back at the end of 2024 I stripped the loco down and studdied the chassie. I then se t about seeing if this could be re created on my rather basic 3d printer for a start, thanks to Riks help on tinkercad I managed to get a rudimentary 3d drawing created for what i deam a complex part.



64 h 49 mins later !!!





I got this ONE item !




I learned quite a few lessons with this but was happy to report back that it actual fit quite well inside the Kiss body. I had created it in a PLA plastic which is quite lightweight but faily strong. But with the time to print (fingers crossed for 64 hours, 49min that there wasnt going to be a powercut ! or any other error) and qualty of my printer this really wasing going to be a solution as to me it looks very poor ! But it served very well to getting a working example.

I decided to print part 2 of the chassie anyway just for "fun" so....................65 hours later !









I then was put to one side and as for what turned out to be 18 months later sat in a box !

 

[DickyC]

Back in June this year I looked at the box thinking I really should do something with this loco !

The chassie that it came with orignally from kiss was a solid and faily heavy bit of kit, I wasnt going to get a very strong base with the PLA 3d print, especially after puting all the new bit inside and the boggies. I then started looking into what had been done by others,

Kiss had made a V1 of this loco, and the excellent website Beahis.ch had documented this with some conversions he had done.


(courtesy of beathis.ch)

This showed that KISS orginally started off with two metal plates sandwiched with spacers and a butt hinge type arrangement for the articulation. See above .

This might be the answer !

Back in 2024 I had also came across a chap in Switzerland who looked to have SOLVED my issue.... as he was selling and still is this replacement ! (photos on website as nt allowed to show here)

KISS Bodenplatten Ge 6/6 II

I made contact with Heiner Bosch, explained that i was in the UK and needed this boden plate, was he happy to send to the the UK ?, I was told yes ! and said i would like to order this please.... Ok was the email i got back

So I place the order online, nothing is paid upfront until ready to send....... and that was the last correspondence I heard from lgb.ch ! I emailed back, phoned, sent messages via face book. NOTHING ! NADA ! diddly squat...

So i was back top Square one.

I thought I would do some cad drawings for the base plates to match V1 of the kiss loco above, and sent these off to various metal cuting services and got costs back for 3mm mild steel from £40 to £400, but I would still have to assemble and get the right spacers, holes etc. I did think that i sould 3d print the aticulation point and also the middle sandwichs of the plate.

Thats was then I had another thought about 3d printed parts, maybe a proffessional 3d printer could produce something better than my craft parts ?

 

[Fezwig]

Just a quick thought having just seen this tread, the main problem is the broken hinge, obviously a weak point, the post about the class 47s splitting I would think is a different problem, I think that was "Mazak" rot which causes the zinc chassis to craze/crack or expand, so if there has been no other faults/changes to the chassis, is it worth reworking the broken hinge and perhaps spreading the load by reinforcing the chassis somehow?

 

[DickyC]

Just a quick thought having just seen this tread, the main problem is the broken hinge, obviously a weak point, the post about the class 47s splitting I would think is a different problem, I think that was "Mazak" rot which causes the zinc chassis to craze/crack or expand, so if there has been no other faults/changes to the chassis, is it worth reworking the broken hinge and perhaps spreading the load by reinforcing the chassis somehow?

Sorry probably didn't show the best picture in 2024, the zinc holding the shaft that pivoted the two bases snapped in several places, the zinc was brittle and had impurities (there's lots of posts about these on German forums and haunted Kiss locos from the early 2000s, helped kill the company too) . Its wasnt just that area , there are 3 other sections on each of the two bases that has the zinc rot and bent out of shape and warped (this was a heavy loco so the previous owner may have dropped at some point too not helping and also could have stored it in wet conditions)

 

[DickyC]

Just a quick thought having just seen this tread, the main problem is the broken hinge, obviously a weak point, the post about the class 47s splitting I would think is a different problem, I think that was "Mazak" rot which causes the zinc chassis to craze/crack or expand, so if there has been no other faults/changes to the chassis, is it worth reworking the broken hinge and perhaps spreading the load by reinforcing the chassis somehow?

Here is the story

Defekte Bodenplatte Kiss Ge 6/6 II — Forum — Modellbahnen Cadosch

Forum, Galerie und Magazin für die Schweizer Modelleisenbahn-Community.

modellbahnen.cadosch.org

Some of the pictures on there show the issues quite well ‍

 

[maxi-model]

Just a quick thought having just seen this tread, the main problem is the broken hinge, obviously a weak point, the post about the class 47s splitting I would think is a different problem, I think that was "Mazak" rot which causes the zinc chassis to craze/crack or expand, so if there has been no other faults/changes to the chassis, is it worth reworking the broken hinge and perhaps spreading the load by reinforcing the chassis somehow?

The problem with "zinc rot" is that it is a chronic progressive condition. The impurities that were present to cause this localised reaction will be present throughout a casting. A "patch" will not stop the rest of casting disintegrating over time. Best start afresh with a new casting, machined billet or 3D print, if the can be engineered to articulate and take the loads. I have a Bachmann 1:20.3 Spectrum boxcar, that was from a well known batch that developed "zinc rot". Progressively the bogies, side fames & bolsters and any Mazak body detailing components just fractured and shattered. I found out too late, by 5 years, it was a known issue and by then Bachmann EU & UK refused to to provide a replacement set of parts, from a batch they had made to cover the issue. They thought I was swinging the lead (zinc ?) as I never kept or photographed the broken parts at the time.

 

[Zerogee]

There is a similar malaise that affects some much older items in my own industry - metal wargaming figures - which is generally known there as "lead rot". Some very old miniatures (such as those from the '70s) can develop a white patina and a powdery surface finish, in the worst cases the metal can start to crumble. It is all down to the composition of the alloy used for the castings, some figures are badly affected while those from other manufacturers are as good as the day they came out of the mould.

Jon.

 

[PhilP]

I have even seen this on the weights in large scale models..

It can make a bit of a mess, and get into grease, making a conductive grinding paste. - This takes some getting rid off!
In one case:
I stabilised the mass with superglue/bi-carb. Then coated the result in a thin layer of epoxy glue.

These days, I might have tried to cast a crude replacement? - It is unseen ballast, after all.

PhilP.

 

[tomfilery]

DickyC,

As you've got the chassis drawn up in 3D (presumably an STL file), you could also consider having it 3D printed in 316L stainless steel (or aluminium - but the stainless would be heavier). It will not be cheap, for a one off, but the price might come down if you up the numbers (you did, at one point indicate that you were thinking of providing some for others). I've used CraftCloud for small stainless parts (bogie sides, stretchers, bolsters and couplings) and although they look like they are cast whitemetal, they most certainly are not.

For those who haven't used Craftcloud, you load your file, via their website, and tell them how many items you want. You then get an enormous list of possible materials, along with costings. Changing the numbers can produce strange savings! E.g. 20 bogie sides came out at £110, but 21 were £85!

My small parts averaged at about a fiver each, but yours would be much more expensive. Alternatively, you could get it printed in tough resin, or ASA, which would be much cheaper. If you do go down the stainless route, make sure you include all your holes in the model file. Although opening up existing ones is relatively easy, drilling new ones can be a little harder.

Hope this is useful.

Tom

 

[PhilP]

Could you break it down into a series of layers, and have it laser-cut in steel?
You would add a few extra holes, and 'bolt' (machine-screw) the layers together..

A lot cheaper than a 3D print.
You could produce rough 3D printed brackets, for mounting other parts.

Just another thought?

PhilP.

 

[DickyC]

Could you break it down into a series of layers, and have it laser-cut in steel?
You would add a few extra holes, and 'bolt' (machine-screw) the layers together..

A lot cheaper than a 3D print.
You could produce rough 3D printed brackets, for mounting other parts.

Just another thought?

PhilP.

yes Phil, have done the drawings for this also and was how the V1 of the was supplied by Kiss. I spent last night going though the forum post about it, it seams Kiss had teased a new base plate, made a prototype, took some locos in to triel it, it failed also and spent a lot of time procrasanating over if and what they should charge the calucatled 250 owners of this model for the replacment, Kiss then went out of business after 2 years.

What realloy is annoying that others have made 3d drawings even made a new part but access to this seams to be in some special swiss club only !

 

[DickyC]

DickyC,

As you've got the chassis drawn up in 3D (presumably an STL file), you could also consider having it 3D printed in 316L stainless steel (or aluminium - but the stainless would be heavier). It will not be cheap, for a one off, but the price might come down if you up the numbers (you did, at one point indicate that you were thinking of providing some for others). I've used CraftCloud for small stainless parts (bogie sides, stretchers, bolsters and couplings) and although they look like they are cast whitemetal, they most certainly are not.

For those who haven't used Craftcloud, you load your file, via their website, and tell them how many items you want. You then get an enormous list of possible materials, along with costings. Changing the numbers can produce strange savings! E.g. 20 bogie sides came out at £110, but 21 were £85!

My small parts averaged at about a fiver each, but yours would be much more expensive. Alternatively, you could get it printed in tough resin, or ASA, which would be much cheaper. If you do go down the stainless route, make sure you include all your holes in the model file. Although opening up existing ones is relatively easy, drilling new ones can be a little harder.

Hope this is useful.

Tom

Cheers Tom. good info

Yes this is what im pursuing, if only for a bit of fun and experitmentation.... "watch this space"...... out all the middlemen 3d agencies craftcloud came out the most expensive option on what I wanted, so went direct to a 3d printer. The parts are currently in production so we will wait and see the result.