Sufficient DC power?

[rentren]

So, I do stay with analog. Among weaker MRC (left overs Z, H0m) I have an AG950 which is one of these items that hide amperage behind that VA number (see here). The AG950 offers 30VA and 20VDC regulated. In the ‘blurb’ I find this:

"TRACK CURRENT: This 0-3DC Ammeter measures the amount of current (amperes) from the power pack being used by the locomotive, plus any other device connected to the track such as lighted passenger cars." Well and then it offers two more sets of connectors: 19VAC, 20VDC (not regulated); total output 30VA

Would that mean the max. output is 3 Amps to run locos, lights on locos, coaches, and possibly via otr outlets further lighting, switch motors (momentary), else?
All in all not a power monster, I take it.

Could have a Bridgeworks Magnum 5-S 5 Amp (with switchable momentum) and I see at eBay a powerful MRC. Is one of those two preferable over the other? I do like 'momentum', 'breaks' as the AG950 offers it.

My largest LGB item is the #2045, RhB Ge 2/4 (that 2-4-2 beauty built just before WW1), other items two 0-6-2 Austrian U40 steam engines, one steam tramway, two Stainz (of different ages) and a LGB 2095 diesel with two motors, a powered coal car with sound and finally that 'thunder wagon' to make that serious chuff-chuff behind one of the two U40s. All engines pre-dcc. (Great hesitance on my part to open up, rewire, reassemble and get the steamers' gearing and rods all properly set again.) Currently 3 power packs do duty, weakest ones for the Stainz and the steam tram.

Total length of track including enlargement underway shy of 350ft (according to Railmodeler Pro; 1ft grid) and station track inclusive (top left what I started out with under a deck, 7’ hight; extension into the open along house wall wrapping around corner to former covered firewood storage.

So. Not a huge affaire running far out into yard/garden. While two sm trains can be busy and circulate independently in the original (top left, el dorado for the Stainz crew plus tram way) layout, one maybe two other trains with up to a dozen axles each (double header or two-motor diesel) negotiate inclines up to 25‰. But the MRC 30VA TECH3 PowerCommand Model 9500 aka AG950 may be overtaxed?! - Thanks for comments!
(Don't hesitate to wonder/comment about blocks I will need in the enlargement

 

[wandgrudd]

The AG950 i belive only offers 1.5 amps if i calculated it right (sure someone will correct me if i am wrong) ?

 

[PhilP]

Lies to children, but for DC, the VA figure is how many Watts of power you have available..

So, 30VA (roughly, 30 Watts)...
Power(Watts) =Volts x Amps. So if you have 30V times 1A you get 30W - not a lot for garden trains, especially if you have 350 foot of track..

Preferably, go for something that will give you 5Amps at 18V or more..

PhilP
(Yes, I know the figures are 'wrong', but good - enough, for what is required)

 

[dunnyrail]

For what he wants a good old LGB setup will do the job and I do not mean the weak livered 1 Amp ones that come in train sets.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Again, I must clarify, the definition of VA (volt amps) is that there is SOME combination of volts and amps that gives this number.

It is virtually NEVER at max voltage

So you cannot assume that a unit that is rated at 24 volts max output and 30 va will give you 1.25 amps at 30 volts.

It is a very deceptive way of rating a power supply, but suffice it to say that the answer to the question is "no, the AG950 is not good enough"

Notice that the TOTAL is 30VA, not the DC part itself... so it is even worse.

I was using a 60 VA MRC, and it would barely run my LGB cleaning loco on smooth, slick, level stainless steel track.

The only MRC "DC" "transformer" that works well on large scale is the MRC "Power G" with an actual 10 amp output, it is not spec'd in VA

Greg

 

[rentren]

TNX, Greg.

Looks don't matter but I must say, there's something to the "Power G" and it offers 10 amp.
The Bridgework 5 amp, offers 'momentum' which I got to like using the insufficient AG950:
Bridgewerks Magnum 5-S
5 Amp, Features: * Speed governor * Switchable momentum * LED voltage & current meters * Ball bearing fan * Resettable circuit breakers * Quick disconnect gold plated plug

So, should the decision be clear to me (based on output) or can a weigh 'good looks and lotsa power' against '...it's got momentum and 5 amp' which is better than what I have. Not sure I ever acquire that cleaning loco, but it's early and I may find soon enough to need such a contraption.

Reinhard

 

[Paul M]

Really the best way forward is to go for the one with the biggest amps output you can afford. With that amount of track you may get a fair amount of volt drop, so the more amps available the better. Plus, of course, you don't know about any future "finger slippage" that may occur.

 

[rentren]

...yeah, that finger slippage. I expected the nod goes toward the amperage, power issues before handling 'sweets' like momentum, breaks.
TNX, Paul!

 

[Rhinochugger]

...yeah, that finger slippage. I expected the nod goes toward the amperage, power issues before handling 'sweets' like momentum, breaks.
TNX, Paul!

Big amps =

 

[Greg Elmassian]

The Bridgewerks are nice units, they are mostly for normal track power. If you think of going to DCC later, you MUST buy the newer style, but the cost and features would be overkill.

In terms of features, and the filtering of the DC, the Bridgewerks are the top of the line, no doubt. I bought the MRC to be used occasionally when non DCC locos were brought to the layout. I have several trains that draw 10 amps EACH, so 5 amps was not useful on my layout.

Greg

 

[rentren]

Again very instructive, Greg, thanks.

...going DCC later on.
1) I hesitate taking the locos apart, esp. the steam engines with driving rods, and then reassembling them properly synched with the motor gears. There are instructions, old Stainz locos upgraded ...go Youtube. Still, a big hesitance as I am out in the boonies and so far have no contact for help for 'special operations'.
2) Obtain engine decoders, a suitable central station, controler, switch decoders, more, ...likely C$2000 and more. New acquisitions are also handled under the aspect of my advancing years (couple more and gettin' 80).
3) Amperage needed ...there are no heavy trains as they run on your layout. I think 16 axels would be a maximum and two motors (double header, maybe a single unit with two motors), likely tho' just 12 axles. The era I roughly follow (pre WW2) and the narrow gauge theme make very long trains almost misfits. Between stations my runs measure between 25ft and 30ft. An engine with three coaches with boogies and a bagage/postal car with 2 axles makes for roughly a 5ft train plus 1ft loco, freights similar length.
…to put things in perspective. The scene contains switch-backs similar to a development near the summit of Austria's 3ft gauge Mariazeller Bahn or similar to Retian Railway above Bergün with the train three times in view making its way up or down the hill.

Running scenarios: one train ascending, the other descending or two trains underway same direction, one passing the other (partially obscured station toward top left). Upper level at lower right with loop, lower level with turn around loop (and train storage).

There are lots of power questions unresolved in my mind when it comes to negotiating blocks with analog powered trains (the top left early part of the layout is separately powered). Would there, e.g., be enough 'juice' from a 5 amp power pack for possibly up to 4 Bühler motors? Two 0-6-2 LGB 2071D, one with powered coal car with sound, one with 'Stubby' helper LGB 2075 (no smoke, no sound); just one of these combos could alo be underway when the RhB Ge 2/4 LGB 2045 is on the road.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Sorry, I was in no way trying to convince you to go DCC. From experience, many people state they will eventually want to go to DCC, and want to re-use thier DC "transformer"...

5 amps will be good for 4 Buhler motors, as they are often under an amp each. If you load up the motors with more cars and/or grades then 5 amps for 4 might be marginal, but that would be heavy loads on all locos at the same time.

Greg

 

[rentren]

Oh, no need to apologize, Greg, not at all! It's faire enough to assume many might see the attraction of DCC and could yet go that route. I won't say never. DCC has many attractions but I must evaluate all aspects (and again, and again).

Good to read that my 'stable' comes with machinery which may be handled with 5 amp mostly, tho' I better not overload. But my trains are shortish!
I just got the news letter of 'Club 1889', ...trains are short
Best -- Reinhard

 

[Edgar]

Reinhard, the track configuration of your R.R. looks to offer a variety running possibilities. My questions are to satisfy my own curiosity. I’m assuming the color variations in track diagram represent different blocks; do any of the colors distinguish between existing rail and what’s under construction? I understand you currently use three separate transformers to operate; are these kept outside or brought in after a running session?

 

[rentren]

Hello Edgar!
Thanks for your interest.

Yes, different colours, different blocks. The extension drawn in hues of mauve and grey (where track enters existing section and will loop beneath).

Top left the original layout situated beneath a deck, 7ft hight. Two ovals (green and blue) connected to allow circling in each or using both doing 8s. Red centre in use when doing the 8. Five station tracks as blocks, plus three more blocks for the two lines or runs and a spur (the steam tram).

Planned and now beginning construction
Extension zig-zags (3 mauve blocks plus two blocks for the grey bypass) from high dark mauve to middle in mid-mauve, looping beneath existing multi-colored Ramosch, then a bypass station, Cantun, to drop further passing lowest level in light purple. The big curves lead to and come from what used to be a covered area for firewood. The upper level is Aschera station, the lower Damal.

Two layout zones are under cover yet outside, in the open wrt 'scenery' when taking pictures. The below deck area is protected by a pitched roof to shed drip water. I could leave power packs outside but I do take them inside just as I carry all rolling stock back in. Eventually I will have a storage area for rolling stock in the sheltered, former firewood area, on the lower level to be precise in Damal. This will get folding doors (downward) and with latches I can close them up like a tool box.

Blocks and select turn-outs are switched in the area of one of the 'dive-ins' where the power pack is extemporizing on the rain barrel. - Quite a little program, it sounds like.

The attached photos reveal more than I like to be seen 8-] but spring has sprung, the garden funiture will get pulled out from beneath the layout as will the rain barrel ontop of which the power pack/throttle is parked for the time being. It's all that first excitment, let 'er run!
And then lots of work.
The three parts of the extension's zig-zags plus curves (the three hues of mauves in the Railmodeler diagram) will be in front of the blue wall wrapping around the corner where the gutter needs attention too (see photo; can it be used as a 'water feature'? I have ideas).

Also, I tested the TECH3 PowerCommand Model 9500, 1996 vintage, aka AG950. It sports meters for amps and track voltage. With a heavy train (6 boogie coaches, i.e. 24 axels) the Ge 2/4 will handle it when level as the Ramosch part of the layout is; shows 1 amp. When I add the 0-6-2 Zillertal U43 tank engine plus its 'thunder' wagon (sound!) the amp meter goes toward 2 amps. Adding the jubby 'Kleine Dicke' to make a triple header, aperage shownaround 2.3. On a 25‰ grade the AG950 may get overloaded with so much making up one train, but this is testing.

Other combo MRC power pack/trottles are weaker but sufficient for smaller locos on the Ramosch circuits. Taking full advantage of the track blocks, I don't expect to run into power supply problems. Also, I won't run normally a 6-coach 'express' (looks good tho', eh?!). A normal consist will have some sort of baggage car (2-axled) and three passenger cars (4-axled). To pull one such 'normal consist' the AG950's amp meter then shows the Ge 2/4 (LGB 2045, no sound) at shy of 1 amp. Glad for those gadgets! Should I want one day a Black Forest beauty on the layout (LGB 2085D), I may well need one of those niffty Bridgeworks 5 amp power supplies.

Do I ever go DCC? I won't rule it out but I need a guarantee to live another 10+ years

 

[dunnyrail]

Do I ever go DCC? I won't rule it out but I need a guarantee to live another 10+ years

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just please do not take 10 years to make the decision! If you can afford it go for it and enjoy.

 

[Paul M]

just please do not take 10 years to make the decision! If you can afford it go for it and enjoy.

In 10 years time DCC will be as dated as clockwork is now

 

[PhilP]

In 10 years time DCC will be as dated as clockwork is now

IoT = Internet of Trains!

 

[dunnyrail]

In 10 years time DCC will be as dated as clockwork is now

Perhaps so, but there will still be plenty of LGB left around and not everyone has the ability or even will to convert to Battery.

 

[rentren]

TNX, folks.
So, I say, it's an affordability issue with a double nature. I figure it'd cost me more than CAN$2000 (1), and (2) I lack the skills to put disassembled locos back together. (I manage taking apart, did it with the loco part of LGB 2017D. Gift with a seized motor. Still sitting their in pieces.)
Further developments in the realm of DCC I certainly expect. (A Mac mini 10 years ago and a Mac mini of the M-type now ...worlds apart.)
In front of the blue house wall to wrap around the house corner that's where efforts and dollars go next.