Piko points: opinions wanted

John
I along with Mike appear to have had the first problems with Piko points. The ferrules on the link wires are steel and corroded within 6 months outside but worse still the insulation on several of the link wires melted and the wires (steel!) fused together.
After reworking them they have been fine but neither I nor the GB importer, Gaugemaster, have been able to get any response from Piko. NOT good .
Keith
EDIT: My Accucraft Caledonia runs through them without any problem, not so with LGB.
I would post you some photos of the ´dodgy´bits but I am on holiday in Madeira at present....
 
Jon i have a failed one which you can have a look at.
Zerogee said:
Asking a small favour....
Could anyone who has one of these points to hand possibly post a quick pic of the underside, showing exactly which screws/terminals are the troublesome ones that fail and need replacing?

Thanks in advance!

Jon.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks - I was just wondering if it was ALL the wiring underneath that could do with pre-emptive replacement to avoid future problems, or if it was just the central part where several wires are overlapped and/or connected to one terminal.

I don't plan on buying any of the Piko points at the moment, I have enough LGB and TL45 ones for what I'm building at this stage, but when (if?) they get round to releasing their Y point and double slip then I might take a serious look at them.
 
I've checked one of these out and the wiring looks ok, I suspect the melting is a result of high resistance joints caused by poor electrical connection to the rails.
I've got one that I'm going to tighten the screws on and spray with grease before fitting.
 
Quote: "They seem to be equal to LGB & definitely better than another make that comes via the USA. However I would recommend anyone to "repair" the offending fixings, even if they are working at the present, before laying them." unquote.

Here we have the 'problem' with our railroad engineers/modellers. Many have the opinion that 'as purchased' (ready to run) is how the item is installed. If running around the Christmas tree once a year or the occasional setting up on the kitchen floor is your thing then ready to run is fine as problems take a while to emerge. Outdoors is another ballpark!

Anything installed in a harsh environment requires preparation to meet the conditions anticipated. While a manufacturer who produces a product for both indoors and outdoors has an obligation to ensure the item performs as designed, it is really up to the operator to do his part to ensure reliability. How many blame points/switches for constant derailment when offhandedly they comment, "..well my track work is really not that good." How many complain of badly performing switch machines when they are left submerged in water repeatedly? Another complained of poor reliability from LGB EPL microswitch packs and yet the manufacturer warns that current draw should be less than 3 amps. The operator repeatedly uses high current draw appliances and expects the switchpacks to operate reliably. Any item that is expected to draw high currents, whether, wiring, switchpack contacts or point electrical contacts, need to be up to the task. If the manufacturer has not built to your required specs then you need to make alterations to suit your requirements. Heavier feeder cables may be required on the underside of switches and if required, the entire underside should be 'coated' to make waterproof.

"Outdoor' railway items are relatively inexpensive these days and yet we expect them to perform at peak performance without failure. Surely it is up to us to take some care/preparation prior to installation. If the underside is prone to contact with the ground then a coating of grease or sealant is perhaps not a bad idea. Similarly, a check tighten of electrical contact mount screws is also in order.

A member made reference to a particular manufacturer in the States. I use over forty of his wideradius switches and several of his #6 switches. With respect to the environment, I chose stainless steel rail and elevated the track off the ground. Every switch did require about 30 minutes preparation prior installation, but, to date, no switrches have failed after seven years outdoors. Several switch machines have failed (LGB) but this was due to ants building nests in them and not in any way related to poor design/construction. A quick clean out and they were back in service.

Strange that you would not put an unpainted steel panel on a car and yet would place exposed/unprotected metals on the underside of a switch directly in contact with the ground. Outdoor railroading is 'engineering' not simply modelling.
 
Tim, with respect, I think you've missed the point (no pun).

Most of the contributors to GSC have longstanding experience with LGB or other points/ switches outdoors. Those have - in the majority experience - worked fine for many years with zero preparation or fettling. They do what the manufacturers claim.

Piko's points have failed - quite rapidly - outdoors in the European environment which is both what they are primarily designed for and their principal marketplace. I'm no LGB "snob" about this. See my review here https://sites.google.com/a/gardenrailwayclub.com/club/track/medium-radius-points-lgb-versus-piko . However, very simply, on a like-for-like basis over a moderate period, Piko's R3 points have not performed as expected. Worse, no explanation has been given for the failures, despite enquiries from multiple buyers and - we are told - their UK distributor. In short, the performance as seen from GSCers' layouts in Europe has been below an acceptable level compared to the competition. If people wish to try Piko, fine, but they should be aware of the salient facts.
 
While the Piko may not be on par with LGB, the onus is still with the operator to ensure the equipment is protected in its operating environment. I have heard of similar reports with LGB R3 points with corroded electrical contacts and distorted track base mouldings, so even the 'best' is beset with problems.

As outdoor operators, we need to get past the ready to run syndrome and make sure the equipment we purchase is fit for the task (low price equates to low quality!). I am not apologising for Piko as, firstly, I do have an expensive defunct DCC central station to contend with (and not happy about it) and any manufacturer that 'refuses' to deal with consumer complaints/issues will be eventually ignored in the marketplace. It took many long years of complaints before Aristo finally realised all was not well with their wide radius switch and actually did something about it. They also had corrosion/current carrying problems and along with a newly redesigned frog moulding, they have certainly improved the product line (alas too late for me as I had already modified my forty plus switches. They also responded to consumer issues with their #6 switch and made improvements to improve the quality and reliability.

Piko points obviously have quality problems and with my experience, I will certainly research any further purchases from the company before commiting my dollars (definately no impulse buying). It would do well for the accounts bottom line for Piko to address these issues sooner rather than later.
 
I think we've exercised this arguement before. Many people have their favourites because they suit their particular amibtions for their railway.

None of them are perfect, even those from the much vaunted premier german manufacturer.

However, the Piko points did have a really bad electrical quality issue which Mike highlighted in a thread, which is bad for all of us, because an up and coming manufacturer that both has a faulty product, and who fails to repond to questions on that fault, isn't going to help the hobby.
 
Rhinochugger said:
However, the Piko points did have a really bad electrical quality issue which Mike highlighted in a thread, which is bad for all of us, because an up and coming manufacturer that both has a faulty product, and who fails to repond to questions on that fault, isn't going to help the hobby.
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Absolutely agree,I forgot to add to my earlier post that i acquired the point I have at WELL BELOW normal price from a job lot buyer who realised it wasn't worth much to any knowledgeable G Scaler
 
Tim i have to disagree with your
" we need to get past the ready to run syndrome and make sure the equipment we purchase is fit for the task"
Comment, The type of track, Locos ,wagons ,coaches etc we are talking about is designed for outdoor use The plastic is uv resistant and isnt brital even though going through various heat cycles, brass is used cos it doesnt rust, everything about the products from all the companies indicates made for outdoor use. and to be honest i think we do take for granted the amount of abuse this stuff takes and still performs well.
But !!!!! it is also designed as a plug and play product and sold as such.... It is not over detailed or over accuratly
scaled it is a Toy when compared to scratch built stuff

As with everything there is a compromise... we G scalers prefer to go for the rugged low maintainace off the shelf ready to run side of things and mostly we get a good deal
If i wanted Scale, Detail, etc i would expect to input a higher degree of maintainence and repair

Tony:thumbup:
 
I agree Tony. Like many other manufacturers, Piko actually say on their product's packaging "for indoors and outdoors". Our climate may be fickle, but it is not extreme - it is exactly as a European manufacturer should expect. We should expect it to do exactly what it says on the box.
 
I think Piko need to get a grip....... :impatient::impatient::impatient:
 
To add another dimension to the debate and John's question, he could also consider Train Line 45 points, which are available without point motors, so his customers could choose which motor (or manual lever) they want to use or might already have. Glendale Junction are the importers for Train Line 45 products.

I have no experience with Piko points myself, but so far I have not read anything on German fora about poor quality or failing points. Maybe one of the UK batches was (simply) a bad batch? They come with a warranty, so why not simply send them back to Gaugemaster for a replacement?
 
bunnyrabbit03 said:
I have no experience with Piko points myself, but so far I have not read anything on German fora about poor quality or failing points. Maybe one of the UK batches was (simply) a bad batch? They come with a warranty, so why not simply send them back to Gaugemaster for a replacement?
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The last time I checked, mine seemed to be OK - so maybe this is the case? The other thing I wondered was if this only happened on digitally controlled railways where the track is subject to max voltage throughout running sessions? Did anyone running analogue only have this problem?
 
Mine failed on analogue. I didn't return them under warranty cos it was simple to fix, and to much hassle to post off and get supplied with replacements that would probably have the same fault. The melting insulation problem others have had is due to heating caused by current passing through the poor contacts made with screws not holding the solder tags down tight to the rails.

Peter
 
marshman said:
Jon i have a failed one which you can have a look at.
Zerogee said:
Asking a small favour....
Could anyone who has one of these points to hand possibly post a quick pic of the underside, showing exactly which screws/terminals are the troublesome ones that fail and need replacing?

Thanks in advance!

Jon.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Stuart,

I'd like to take a look at it to see if I can repair and modify it.

Any chance of a photo please?
 
Zerogee said:
Thanks - I was just wondering if it was ALL the wiring underneath that could do with pre-emptive replacement to avoid future problems, or if it was just the central part where several wires are overlapped and/or connected to one terminal.

I don't plan on buying any of the Piko points at the moment, I have enough LGB and TL45 ones for what I'm building at this stage, but when (if?) they get round to releasing their Y point and double slip then I might take a serious look at them.
Click to expand...
The problem with the wiring on mine was where the wires crossed over, the insulation melted and fused them together! Since ´fettling´they have worked well - touch wood!
 
peterexmouth said:
Mine failed on analogue. I didn't return them under warranty cos it was simple to fix, and to much hassle to post off and get supplied with replacements that would probably have the same fault. The melting insulation problem others have had is due to heating caused by current passing through the poor contacts made with screws not holding the solder tags down tight to the rails.

Peter
Click to expand...
Peter
Exactly that, plus corrosion on the terminals increased the resistance and caused the melted insulation on the wiring.
 
In my opinion, the most dambing bit in this story is the silence from Piko to genuine complaints.
 
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