LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?

[Zerogee]

I don't know if this is something that anyone on here will have experience of - but if an LGB loco that was factory-supplied as analogue has one of the proper LGB silver "D" stickers on the gearbox (indicating an MTS chipped loco), does that indicate that it had the chip installed by an LGB-approved service centre?
I've just received a red 21900 DUO KoF, with the powered uncouplers, bought from a German dealer via eBay.de (for a VERY good price!); the auction stated it was digital, and sure enough there is the silver D sticker on it, but the box states that it was originally analogue. Does anyone know if there was a digitised run of these locos produced at the factory in addition to the analogue ones, or if this one is likely to have been dealer-chipped?
To be honest, I haven't even had the chance to test it yet, so I'm hoping it all works OK - anyone got one of these that has been digitised, and can let me know which function command operates the uncoupler?

Jon.

 

[steve parberry]

The little sticker just means a chip will plug straight in and may need a interface cable...

Dosent mean it has been done by anyone special.

 

[dutchelm]

As far as I know the Red duo's were only ever analogue. The gear box was never intended for digital as it only had 3 pins. I converted one myself to digital & demonstrated it to Wolfgang at a G rail show. The following year the blue digital one came out.
I'm still waiting for LGB to send me one in payment for copying my prototype.

 

[Zerogee]

No, Steve, I don't mean the round silver "direct decoder" sticker (or the black one with the ring of white dots) - I mean the rectangular silver sticker with a stylised "D" over a drawing of an MTS remote - the sticker used on factory-chipped MTS locos. The KoF has one of these, but the box does NOT indicate an MTS loco, hence my confusion.....

Jon.

 

[steve parberry]

No, Steve, I don't mean the round silver "direct decoder" sticker (or the black one with the ring of white dots) - I mean the rectangular silver sticker with a stylised "D" over a drawing of an MTS remote - the sticker used on factory-chipped MTS locos. The KoF has one of these, but the box does NOT indicate an MTS loco, hence my confusion.....

Jon.

Note to self read post correctly next time

As for the sticker i can only assume its a digital loco in an anolouge box....Unless someone else know different

 

[Zerogee]

As far as I know the Red duo's were only ever analogue. I converted one myself to digital & demonstrated it to Wolfgang at a G rail show. The following year the blue digital one came out.
I'm still waiting for LGB to send me one in payment for copying my prototype.

Thanks Mike - so it's almost certainly an aftermarket-chipped job, but I'm still wondering if the presence of the D sticker indicates that it was done "professionally"? If not, and it was a DIY install, I don't know where the installer would have got the sticker from...?

I don't suppose you have any notes left (or better still, piccies?!) of your converted one and how it was wired?

Jon.

 

[dutchelm]

As far as I know the Red duo's were only ever analogue. I converted one myself to digital & demonstrated it to Wolfgang at a G rail show. The following year the blue digital one came out.
I'm still waiting for LGB to send me one in payment for copying my prototype.

Thanks Mike - so it's almost certainly an aftermarket-chipped job, but I'm still wondering if the presence of the D sticker indicates that it was done "professionally"? If not, and it was a DIY install, I don't know where the installer would have got the sticker from...?

I don't suppose you have any notes left (or better still, piccies?!) of your converted one and how it was wired?

Jon.

Somewhere in the archives is a wiring diagram. I will look for it tomorrow.
My loco has a date sticker of 1994 which was pre MTS. I aquired it secondhand as part of a swop. It never worked as it should on a train engineer so I rewired it
It was fitted with an ESU locsound decoder & I used 2 small relays fitted in the cab to operate the couplers (because they were in the junk box & FOC)

 

[dutchelm]

This is what it looks like with its lid on.

 

[dutchelm]

This is the fleet used on Sabden Yard. The couplers on all 3 locos are programmed to 1 & 2 as they are easier to remember.

 

[Gizzy]

The red LGB 21900 KoF is an analogue model AFAIK, and the blue 23900 was digital.

However it seems you may have a chipped version of the 21900 Jon? Very rare!

Here's the Product Data:

http://www.champex-linden.de/lgb_pr...dd618ffc1256936003d150202ec.html?OpenDocument

Also this one with instructions;


http://www.champex-linden.de/lgb_pr...F10BD802FC4A185256931005F8190/$FILE/21900.pdf

Uncoupling is done not via a Function, but by moving the loco slowly away from its train, at a speed of 1-1.5 on an analogue controller. I guess this would be 1 or 2 speed steps for an MTS Remote or Navigator.
One of the cab roof lights come on to indicate that the hook has lowered and therefore uncoupled from the train.

I'd like to borrow it to try on Hardyard sometime, pretty please....

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
the silver 'D' sticker to me would indicate a factory run installation (not a dealer). It is quite possible that you have a 'transition' model as the company geared up production from the red analogue version to the digital blue version. Transition models are not that uncommon in that LGB used remaining stock on hand in the production period following halting production on an earlier model and ramping up the new model. Whatever was in the parts bin.

Not unusual for LGB to 'throw' in a decoder to get rid of surplus type '1' decoders (#55020) to convert an analogue to digital at end of model run. In your case obviously the decoder installation required a DCC friendly drive block (released about the end of the red Duo production run). So if a genuine 'red' Duio then was a production expediency to use up existing red bodies prior the introduction of the digital blue 'Duo'.

On the other hand someone down the track could have replaced the drive lower cover with a later digital stickered type (loco nopt actually digital).

 

[Zerogee]

Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

Well, I've just opened up my red KoF Duo, and here's what is inside....

To me, the decoder installation looks pretty professional, so I would guess it IS a factory-fit job -anyone familiar enough with the insides of these things to comment further? The two white/green/brown harnesses with the blue plugs go to the powered coupler modules, and a 4th (yellow) wire has been added to the original 3-pin motor block to digitise it.

The uncoupler function works on F1, press the key once and both uncouplers activate (and stay open), press it again and they both return to "coupled" position. When the couplers are dropped, the red light on the cab roof is illuminated, when they are coupled the orange light is on.

Jon.

 

[palmerston]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

Schematic diagram from Massoth: The circuit in this form is usable only for a drive. For both drives the circuit must be doubled. The functional output of the decoder is programmed (not dimmed) to full voltage. The roof flashing function must be implemented using two additional F-outputs.

 

[Tim Brien]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

Jon,
I think you have a rarity here, possibly a factory prototype. The use of Massoth decoder mounts on the type '1' decoder is certainly the work of LGB. This is how they did their clearout installations on analogue locomotives retrofitted in house with decoders when they had a surplus of the #55020 type '1' decoders.

I do not think a 'factory' run on this model as it would have been more assembly line friendly to have used a four pin block. As stated above, either a prototype or a transition model to use up existing stores prior releasing the digital model. I had three analogue versions and was always aprehensive every time I increased the throttle to activate the uncoupler. Suprisingly, while all three were purchased new, not one worked reliably out of the box. I had to rig every loco to get working as it should have. The digital single function operation sounds just dandy to me (pity I did not have the digital version as the analogue was great fun but inconvenient juggling the throttle to get the uncoupler to function).

 

[dutchelm]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

Jon,
Is there a date code on the loco. The original duos were early 1994.

 

[Zerogee]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

Mike - the production date (gold sticker) on the KoF indicates 1993 (full code 901123). There are two other stickers on the underside - a larger round white one for the LGB 25 year anniversary, 1968-1993 (which helps to confirm the production date, I guess) and the rectangular silver "D" sticker to indicate a digitally-chipped loco (the D sticker slightly overlaps the 25th Anniversary one, so was applied after it).
I'm assuming that it would have been chipped long after it was made (1993 is way too early for even the first generation MTS, isn't it?), but that doesn't mean it wasn't done at the factory - it could be an old stock item pulled from the shelves and then chipped up before finally being sold.

Here's a shot of the underside; note that, as mentioned before, it isn't even a "D" gearbox but an old 3-pin type.
Any more ideas or informed speculation welcome!

Jon.

 

[funandtrains]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

Lehmann sold off a lot of factory prototypes the years before they went bust in auctions and at their summer fairs. I few years ago on ebay i got a digital 21701 DR U class. The seller didn't mention anything about it being unusual but the frames are hand painted red over white plastic. I think this loco must of been a similar prototype.

 

[dutchelm]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

I showed Wolfgang my red prototype at the G rail at Rugby in 2004 & he made pages of notes in his little book.
Is it possible that he went back to the factory & asked one of his underlings to make one. Development underling went to the stores, took out one of the unsold locos & made a prototype. Once approved for manufacture it then sat on the shelf until the great sell off.
The blue production unit came out in 2005.

 

[whatlep]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

I'm assuming that it would have been chipped long after it was made (1993 is way too early for even the first generation MTS, isn't it?), but that doesn't mean it wasn't done at the factory - it could be an old stock item pulled from the shelves and then chipped up before finally being sold. Jon.

1993 certainly too early for MTS which appeared five years later in 1998. The sticker is not authoritative as they could be bought at one point after the bankruptcy (date stickers for 2005 can still be bought from Modell-land in Germany! It could be old stock, a factory prototype included in the fire sale at the 125th LGB anniversary or simply one of the many orphans sold off as part of the liquidation auction. If you have a box for the loco, see if it has what looks like a cloakroom ticket on it: they were used at the auction.

 

[Zerogee]

Re:Red DUO KoF (was: Re:LGB locos with dealer-fitted chips - silver "D" stickered?)

No ticket on box, Peter - the box is correct for the loco, it's an original 21900 box showing the red KoF with the DUO logo, and a separate "NEW!" flash sticker by the label.
I don't suppose anyone has an original analogue red 21900 that they would be prepared to photograph the innards of? I'd like to see if the main circuit board is basically the same as mine with the exception of the 55020 chip, or if it's a custom board made for this digital conversion? Right in the middle of the PCB on mine is a small square black box (mostly hidden by the wiring looms in my pics above) which I assume to be the relay that works the coupler modules.

Just as an aside, would it be a straight swap-in to replace the aged 55020 decoder with a same-sized modern equivalent (probably a Massoth L)? At present the motor seems quite noisy, which I feel may be down to the old decoder as all the gearing etc. seems to be fine.

Jon.