A high pitched Pip

[PhilP]

I am awfully confused. I have also discovered that toggling F7 on the navigator does not affect whether there is power to the smoke unit. I am certain that the "pip" sound is load sensitive in so far as it only occures when accelerating from one speed to a higher speed, otherwise there is no noise. When I purchased the loco I had the sound card fitted before I took delivery so have no knowlege of the performance of the smoke unit and surmise that it was always powered from the original control card, but now it is wired through the sound card. Would it be worth replacing the power wires from the smoke unit back onto the main card and on what output do I wire it to?

NO!

Chas, the pulsed smoke unit has a chip in it (it is its' own decoder) so it has track-power all the time..
F7 (if it is configured that way..) sends a command to the decoder in the smoke unit to turn it off/on.

The track-power wires (may) go into the track-power connections on the sound decoder, but this is only a way to connect everything together.
The sound decoder (and smoke-unit) are probably connected by a thin, 3-wire cable?? - This is from the pulse trigger to syncronise smoke and sound to wheel rotation.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Time to get the manual out for the smoke unit and the manual for the decoder and see what is wired to what. Blindly connecting stuff is dangerous. You said you had this installed, any help from the installer?

Also, you have not stated, did this every work "right" or has this issue been there since you had the decoder fitted?

Greg

 

[chasaitch]

Time to get the manual out for the smoke unit and the manual for the decoder and see what is wired to what. Blindly connecting stuff is dangerous. You said you had this installed, any help from the installer?

Also, you have not stated, did this every work "right" or has this issue been there since you had the decoder fitted?

Greg

Hi Greg, The problem is that I can't find a manual for the smoke unit although I do have a Massoth manual but mine differs in there are no dip switches and the plate/sticker on the side is reference MLGB154247 so I surmise that this is particular to Marklin/LGB. It was originally wired to the main board and when I had the Massoth soundcard installed the Smoke unit was powered from the soundcard but the pulse generation remained with the Ball senser. There was no problem when I first had the loco running even after I had changed the loco address. What I can't get my head around is all the advice I am getting is to change the loco address so that all three cards read the same. Obviously all cards cv1 was 3, is it not normal we change cv1 to the address that we wish to use for that particular loco without giving thought to changing all cv1 on each and every card? I am getting the idea I am victim of the saying a little knowlege is a dangerous thing, that I have messed about with the cvs once too often and the simplest solution might be to reset the soundcard to the manufacturers settings, or put my head in the oven which wont have an effect since we don't have gas!, just make me look stupid. Wasn't it one of yours who said keep it simple stupid.

 

[muns]

Can you take some pictures of (or describe) how the smoke unit was wired to the decoder?

 

[Greg Elmassian]

OK, that explanation helps a lot!

Well, the common method is to change all cards in a loco to the same address, it is the easiest way as long as the function commands between the separate cards do not conflict.
(The other method involves consisting, a big pail of snakes if you don't fully comprehend consisting and the several ways of doing it and ramifications of functions)

When doing it this way, you need to be able to isolate the different cards so you can program them separately, not only on the programming track, but also if you program on the main... (there is another method to do this with "decoder lock" but it is really tricky and not all decoders support that).

So putting switches in that will disconnect each card (just interrupt one of the track pickup lines) is the most straightforward way to do it, unless you want to open the loco and disconnect one or the other.

In any case the smoke unit most likely has a DCC address, and it might behave similarly to a massoth one... does it look like the massoth units? I'd find a similar massoth with the same interface and see if it looks similar and try using that manual.

My guess is when you changed the loco address the smoke unit was left behind...

Greg

 

[Deleted member 4232]

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[dunnyrail]

Reading this I am so glad that I never bother with Smoke in my Locs, even those that have it fitted.

 

[muns]

AFAIK 2-10-2's were never fitted with a decoder equipped Pulsed Smoke unit and were 5v.

 

[chasaitch]

OK you lot, this is where I'm at. The only card that has a CV address is the XLS Massoth card, The smoke unit is as John S pictures it (see above) and does not appear to have a digi card or at least one that I could read + it is marked as 5 volts and although I managed to get the fan spinning the heating element seemed nackered probably because the sound card was delivering track voltage, about 18.5 volts, to which it had been connected. The smoke unit had been connected to the sound card through the 24v and F3 terminals as seen top right of John S' picture. Now I don't seem to get any power through those terminals!
I have in the past not mentioned what it is we have been talking about. The loco is LGB26813 997238-1 and having meandered my way around this forum and google I notice that the installation of a XLS sound card in this piece of kit has been broached in the past and I feel that I might have been going over an already well trodden path. My initial inqury was about a noise Pip that I have been getting when the loco is accellerating, and I still get it, but what I have now found is that it is replicated when toggling F13 (on and off it still sounds) on the Navigator, so it leads me to think this is something on the sound card and is it something I can remove? The other thing is that now I have the loco in bits would anyone advise me to install the hartzbulle 2-10-2 sounds off the Massoth site, how should I do it, and should I leave well alone! Thank you everyone.

 

[PhilP]

No disrespect, but I would suggest you take it to someone who has played a little more than yourself..
You really need to know how the decoder is setup at present, then that can be replicated when you load the new software into the decoder. - It will overwrite everything.

From your last post, go through the manual, find the CV for F13, and see which 'sound' (if any) is assigned to it.
Also, see what the divider value for the F3 output on the decoder is set to.

 

[Deleted member 4232]

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[chasaitch]

The "pip" has gone! BUT I was playing with the Massoth service tool (I have downloaded both versions) and using the first version that has more sound files because it has two Hartsbulle files alledgedly. One doesnt and the other didn't download so, as I was in playing mode to see If I could master the thing I tried to download the 2-6-2 Harts which worked. The pip was gone and the chuff didn't work and I suppose there might be other short comings. Checking the CVs which gave a good result I don't seem to be able to download anything else neither can I reload the original sound file. I might be getting older but I'm sure as hell not getting wiser.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So the smoke unit is analog only, looks like power leads (probably track voltage) and the typical 3 leads for a hall effect sensor.

John S, does that jive with your understanding?

(It would be hard to determine if it was a DCC capable unit by the 5 wires alone, but a look at the circuit board would probably help if there was a microprocessor or not)

Anyway, seems there were multiple issues in this installation, and the learning curve is starting...

Greg

 

[chasaitch]

The only DCC thing on the loco was the sound card. The smoke unit would appear to have been a Massoth unit made for LGB and analog controlled by the hall sensor. and it would seem that the heater unit is burned out. Although I could try replacing that item I have talked to someone who ultimately replaced the thing with a digital unit that runs at track power and not the 5v of the analog unit.
I still need to reply to John S and will do so in due course after I have played a little more. At least I have lost the "pip" but I am not totally in control of the rest of things.

 

[Deleted member 4232]

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[chasaitch]

Greg, unfortunately over of the course of time, the history of these units has not been well recorded.

Summarise, that it would have powered by an earlier version board (prior to the dcc interface board) low voltage being supplied to the Hall Sensor and the Smoke Unit, the CLOCK Signal or PULSE from the rotation of the Hall Sensor would have been connected the Smoke Unit, hence the Chuff effect.

What the electronics are in the Smoke Unit, can't find any reference to it ( noticed from the post above it has been replaced, so if still around will ask to see if I can have it for curiosity purposes)

Later conversions that I found references to, did away with using the LGB Hall Sensor, and were connected to thesocket on the decoder, using a simulated Chuff Trigger to activate the Smoke Unit.

As mentioned very little is known, and from my viewpoint it's no more than an academic curiosity to understand how it worked.

An interesting thought. I never saw the insides when I bought the thing and just had the sound card fitted, everything seemed to work well at first until I started playing around with CVs trying to adjust acc and retardation rates when the "pip" started. I have now started playing around with the MST and I must be getting somewhere because I now have the sound of a Harts 2-6-2 in a 2-10-2. I couldn't get the 2-10-2 sound to download so I just tried the 2-6-2 and buggins luck is where I got!
I shall try to attach the first reading of the CVs for your perusal.
As far as the smoke unit is concerned, let me have your address and its yours. and I enclose a printout also.

 

[Deleted member 4232]

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[Deleted member 4232]

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[Greg Elmassian]

Just a note: "adjusting the voltage" on a function output is normally done with PWM, so you would be sending "spikes" of full voltage to the "brain" of the smoke unit.

If this is all analog circuitry, perhaps the circuitry would average the PWM to 5 volts, but this is not normally a good idea. Since there is an onboard microprocessor, your "input" circuitry needs to filter and regulate... so I would look into this... if it assumes a fixed 5 volts, it would seem to not have any regulation, and PWM at track voltage would be a bad idea.

Also, history has taught me that errant decoder resets and full voltage through bulbs and leds is a bad thing.

Just a comment on "adjusting voltage" on function outputs ... it's really not doing that...

Greg

 

[chasaitch]

The saga goes on!... The pip has gone and I now have a Hartzbulle 2-10-2 in full voice, only my maker knows how. Originally it was without sound but had a pulsed smoke unit that was a 5v of obvious Massoth design which would have been wired to a Hall sensor but had been connected to the Massoth XLS sound unit when I had that installed. My question is, is there any advantage in trying to utilise the sensor and if so how ? or should I leave well alone and knowing my propensity to f**k up I might be well advised to leave well alone! All that is left to do is install a new Massoth pulsed smoke unit and then try to put the thing back together, fortunately the only nut that can be left without a bolt to put it on is the pillock doing the job, though that is not to say there might not be a few screws left!