The dark side has finally won.....I have fun with a couple of LGB DCC streetcars..BUT.....

[ntpntpntp]

If you read up on US railroad operating with DCC, where consists are commonplace, you'll find a lot of time is spent speed matching locos, ie. fiddling with the speed table CVs until all locos run as closely as possible to the same speed for a given speedstep on the throttle. Some folk use speed measuring devices to help with this, others simply time a loco up and down the track at different speed steps.

Ease of setting up consists can be down the DCC system you use. For example with my NCE system you set up a consist by choosing whether to use standard consisting or advanced consisting (terms which were explained earlier in the thread I think?) then add in the loco addresses and the direction they're facing in the consist. Then off you go! Simples. No CVs to fiddle with, it's all sorted out by the system. To be fair, NCE is an american system so they'd have soon got it in the neck if they didn't get things like consisting right!

 

[beavercreek]

Then off you go! Simples. No CVs to fiddle with, it's all sorted out by the system. To be fair, NCE is an american system so they'd have soon got it in the neck if they didn't get things like consisting right!

Cheers Nick
This confirms what I said way back in the thread. The NCE and ZIMO sustems have easy methods of consisting (with locos facing different ways) and I was trying to find out if there was a way to do this with the Massoth system.
'whatlep' did say that apparently LGB MTS can do it for two locos but beyond that no and also that Massoth had left out this software provision so perhaps I will have to wait for them to include it in the future...which is okay as I will need time to afford to chip all my USAT and ARISTO diesels anyway!!!

So for the time being, using my BIG switch I will be consisting with DC and using DCC for single (and possibly duo) locos

The thread has come full circle and as can be read in my very first posting on it. I now am certain of what can be and can't be achieved with the Massoth system in an easy fashion (without delving into CVs) and also why I have DC provision very much available.

 

[muns]

Massoth have not left consiting out.....it can run several consits of up to 4 locos each. What I did day is that there is an ommission in how it works, it expects all the locos to be facing the same direction - i.e. you cant have 2 locos running forward and one backwards in the same consit.

As i said previously, I will try and clarify if there has been any progress in allowing each loco in the consit to have its direction specified thus allowing the A-B-A formations to run correctly WIthOut the need to set the trailing A unit to run backwards (with CV29).

 

[beavercreek]

Muns...if you read all of posts you will see that I acknowledge that Massoth can consist but it has been my question all the way through this thread that I wanted easy consisting with the ability to have locos facing different threads.
You and indeed whatlep have shown that although LGB MTS can consist up to two locos in any orientation, Massoth has left out this feature without having to sort CVs (I have said this now three or more times in the thread I think).

I see that someone has marked your post as helpful which is good. But I think that I acknowledged your valuable input also way back in the thread. And have not said anywhere that Massoth could not consist but there you go

 

[muns]

Ok Mike, it would seem that I "mis-read" the context of your post (#44), and therefore appologise - must put brain in gear before I type (or rant). When I read it, it seemed to imply that the DiMax unit did not consit, hence my post.

 

[beavercreek]

No problem, let's hope that there is no-one else who thinks that I was dissing Massoth!

 

[Zerogee]

Mike - just a thought, but when you chip the locos that you're likely to use in multiple consists, why not simply put a DPDT changeover switch (easily accessible from outside the loco) between the decoder and the motor(s) - then you can simply reverse the running direction of any given loco at any time, at the flick of a switch, when making up your consist - without altering anything in the decoder programming?

Jon.

 

[lone ranger]

Mike - just a thought, but when you chip the locos that you're likely to use in multiple consists, why not simply put a DPDT changeover switch (easily accessible from outside the loco) between the decoder and the motor(s) - then you can simply reverse the running direction of any given loco at any time, at the flick of a switch, when making up your consist - without altering anything in the decoder programming?

Jon.

Now there's great lateral thinking a prize to that man

 

[beavercreek]

Mike - just a thought, but when you chip the locos that you're likely to use in multiple consists, why not simply put a DPDT changeover switch (easily accessible from outside the loco) between the decoder and the motor(s) - then you can simply reverse the running direction of any given loco at any time, at the flick of a switch, when making up your consist - without altering anything in the decoder programming?

Jon.

By heck lad that was what we talking about on Friday weren't it? A really nice little solution you came up with too. Take 5 stars.....
I was just, obviously vainly, wondering whether there was a Massoth 'magic bullet' to do it.
But I do have a feeling that by time I get hold of all of the chips, Massoth will have updated the software/firmware to include easy 'any which way' consisting.
Now I wonder .............about mixing analogue and DCC chipped locos any which way in the same consist...only joking folks!!!!

 

[Zerogee]

Mike - just a thought, but when you chip the locos that you're likely to use in multiple consists, why not simply put a DPDT changeover switch (easily accessible from outside the loco) between the decoder and the motor(s) - then you can simply reverse the running direction of any given loco at any time, at the flick of a switch, when making up your consist - without altering anything in the decoder programming?

Jon.

By heck lad that was what we talking about on Friday weren't it? A really nice little solution you came up with too. Take 5 stars.....
............

Thank'ee koindly, zurrr.... (tugs forelock)

In fact, thinking about it, aren't most US-built models (USAT, Aristo, Bachmann etc) fitted with such a switch already, to cope with the difference between NMRA and "Large Scale" standard running, which I believe are in opposite directions? If the switch is wired between the motors and the decoder interface, as I think it would have to be, surely that would do exactly what I'd suggested - program the decoder for the standard "Large Scale" running direction, then when you reverse the loco in a consist, switch it over to the NMRA setting and it'll treat a "forwards" command as "backwards"?
With a loco that doesn't already have such a switch, it is simple enough to install one at the same time as the decoder.

Jon.

 

[beavercreek]

Yes Jon Bachmann have that switch but USAT just have on/off switches for smoke,lights, sound and motors. Aristo have some of them and sometimes one for track/battery

 

[Zerogee]

Yes Jon Bachmann have that switch but USAT just have on/off switches for smoke,lights, sound and motors. Aristo have some of them and sometimes one for track/battery

Ah, right - being all Euro myself I wasn't sure, but I knew I seen that some locos had the switch. No problem, just a good high-amp DPDT from Rapid, no more than a quid, and Robert is your Mum's brother.....

Jon.

 

[Gizzy]

We once had four V52 locos running in a consist at Bigjack's once (see his Avatar), but all were running with the No 1 end (long bonnet) for'ard.

My guess is that you would need to change the relevant CV for a loco that you'd wish to run 'tail to nose' to make it run backwards.

This is a 'feature' I've had to get used to since venturing to the dark side. I have reversing loops on my line and with DC, I had to change the dirction of the control knob once stopped in the loop. Basically I had a set up , where if I moved the control knod to the right (clockwise), the loco moved to the right, and vice-versa.

With DCC, this is no longer the case, and I now need to remember which is the front end of the loco. Easy with a steamy or a V52, but for a double-ended loco like a wizzy-cranks it can be a bit 50/50!

Zerogee explained it to me that it's a bit like flying a R/C aircraft. When it's flying away from you, move the stick left to turn left, but when it's flying back towards you i.e. mirror image you still have to move the stick left to make it turn to the aircraft's port-side, but of course, for you it's turning to your right! I found this confusing until I got my head round it.

The idea of a simple switch for tail to nose consist running (dpdt) between the decoder and motor, is a simple one....

 

[beavercreek]

Surely we should be pushing the manufacturers to provide what we want. This kit should do what it says on the tin! I would suggest if the support of just the members of this forum was withdrawn they might as well pack it in!!!
Massoth must be feeling the pinch since the demise of LGB......log onto their forum and see how many unanswered and unresolved topics there are.................................
My car has disc brakes all round but I still have an anchor on the seat just in case!

Roly, I totally agree. Those of us who want a computer to run without hiccups, to have an elegant intuitive OS interface, and be a joy to use tend to go to an Apple Mac (Windows has got a lot better but is still bugged and top heavy).
Massoth make fine kit and as a family business have a good track record of support BUT they are also a generation behind when it comes to making things intuitive. Now they could very easily have two layers of control, one for the geeks of us who like to tinker under the hood (just like the old C:> prompters ) the other level for the ones who like to have 'on the fly' control with seemless intergration of the CVs (like DOS) with a totally graphical interface (like Windows) and no CV programming for things like consisting.
It would not be hard to program, let's say, a function or key combination, that would accept that one or two locos were facing the other way in a consist and to make up that consist any which way you wanted. The fact that there has to be access to individual CVs to tell the system that the loco will in fact run in reverse is really old school. If we had to do similar things now to change functions on a computer for example, that brand would not make it past the next week in the retail business.

Now Massoth is not the only maker in the DCC world that has the issue of making the whole experience as simple and intuitive as possible, the other brands may have a bit more but some have even less intuitive interfaces so......as there is already a system for control from an ipad or iphone it should not be long for someone to create a trully graphical overlay and simple control for things like consisting, volume control etc that can be done on the fly

Again there will be those that cry..."well I understand it fully so it does not need to be graphical or simple" Well we would be still using C:> if that was the real world

 

[Zerogee]

Thinking about it even more, with some LGB locos you wouldn't even need to find a place for a new switch - I'm sure that while you are doing the decoder install, you could actually re-wire the 3-position switch (which I think is double-pole?) in the cab to provide this changeover facility - after all this switch effectively does b*gger-all in a DCC loco anyway, and is usually only there as an analogue "legacy" part....

Jon.

 

[whatlep]

Perhaps I could remind everyone that Massoth already have the software written for the consisting function we'd all like to see. It's in the LGB universal controller! May I suggest that those who'd like the "any orientation" option adding to the Massoth Navigator send an e-mail to Massoth explaining what's required and why it's important?

Just my 2p worth....

 

[beavercreek]

Thinking about it even more, with some LGB locos you wouldn't even need to find a place for a new switch - I'm sure that while you are doing the decoder install, you could actually re-wire the 3-position switch (which I think is double-pole?) in the cab to provide this changeover facility - after all this switch effectively does b*gger-all in a DCC loco anyway, and is usually only there as an analogue "legacy" part....

Jon.

Good point Jon......as the locos that, I personally, would be consisting are USAT and ARISTO, I would use the DPDT switch solution. I wouldn't 'hack-in' to the makers switches as I tend to try an leave as much original wiring in situ (and generally use it or bypass it) so that the loco could be sold on as 'out of the box' and the chip or sound system carried over to another one.
A hole in the base (left after the DPDT switch was removed let's say) is fine as it could be used by the new user for charging, another switch etc etc.

 

[beavercreek]

Perhaps I could remind everyone that Massoth already have the software written for the consisting function we'd all like to see. It's in the LGB universal controller! May I suggest that those who'd like the "any orientation" option adding to the Massoth Navigator send an e-mail to Massoth explaining what's required and why it's important?

Just my 2p worth....

Worth more than 2p I would say
I will do that today. Maybe they could even extend it up to four locos!

 

[Zerogee]

............... Roly, I totally agree. Those of us who want a computer to run without hiccups, to have an elegant intuitive OS interface, and be a joy to use tend to go to an Apple Mac (Windows has got a lot better but is still bugged and top heavy).
Massoth make fine kit and as a family business have a good track record of support BUT they are also a generation behind when it comes to making things intuitive.......

Given that they are still quite a small family-business outfit, I strongly suspect that the "development" arm of Massoth is most likely one overworked bloke (or two at the most) - and they do seem to take their time over releasing things - but I'd certainly rather have them "Right" than "Now", even while many of us would wish for "Right (and) Now!"
I emailed Peter at Massoth last week to see if there was any news update on the DRC300, and he told me that it would now most likely not be out till next year - that means a 2013 release (if it happens then) for a product that was promised for mid-2010!
Now I'm a huge fan of Massoth products, I like their decoders and find them very easy to install and program, and I love my 1200Z and Navi combo - but I really do think that sometimes they promise things on an unrealistic (for them) development schedule, which can be extremely frustrating!

Jon.

 

[Gizzy]

Thinking about this, Massoth must have a large presence in the US of A.

So surely this consisting issue would be known about on their forums....