The dark side has finally won.....I have fun with a couple of LGB DCC streetcars..BUT.....

[beavercreek]

I have been died in the wool DC (train engineer) on the three separate lines on my layout, but I have being saying for some years that I might 'dabble with the dark forces' of DCC. Well, I had obtained a massoth setup some time back and it had just stayed in its boxes glaring at me, daring me to use it.
We had an open day very recently and I was determined to get it set up and running on the mainline with a big switch to also allow the use of my DC TE equipment.
Visitors brought their own DCC locos and put my Massoth system through its paces and we had a good laugh. I was still in the starting blocks as far as using the Navigator (handset) to its full potential.
Jon (zerogee), Steve (bigjack) and I conveened at Jon's yesterday and an intensive bout of Massothing occured. Again good fun. I took around my two LGB streetcars (both DCC-ed at factory) and was shown how to do a few things (it is by far better to learn alongside someone else rather than just read the manual...well it definitely is for me!).

Today the weather was good and I had a window to try out my new knowledge. I do not have many chipped locos so I decided to use the two streetcars again and I had a ball!. Controlling both individually from the one handset, using the functions on the separate locos, comparing speed curves etc etc.

Now, this may sound like I have been sucked in, hook line and sinker...BUT...although I can definitely see all the pluses with DCC I am also in the situation where I can, using DC, just very easily throw a double, triple or quad consists together with locos facing anyway and know that they will just work. Where as it is easy to make consists in DCC, there is the thorny problem of having to change a CV if you have loco facing the 'wrong' direction. Due to the incline on my layout I have to have multiple locos if i want to run longer trains and prototypical diesel running does not generally have the locos running 'elephant' fashion. Perhaps someone knows a really quick way of allowing mixed running with DCC without CVs?
Also I would have to chip all of my 'helper' motorised rolling stock.
So I am in the 'no-man's' land I really like the benefits of DCC but love the simplicity of DC...OH DEAR!!!

anyway here are some photies of my 'fun' DCC session

Waiting at Beaver Creek

playing follow my leader

separated they go about their business at either end of the layout

The Navigator showing the two locos under control

All the control is now in one place with the mainline DC and DCC switched with the 'BIG' switch. There are two more switches waiting for when,,or if... I decide to allow DCC onto the other two lines..mmmmmm...perhaps...well maybe on the present shuttle line (to become a double reverse loop) but probably never on the quarry line

 

[Cliff George]

Where as it is easy to make consists in DCC, there is the thorny problem of having to change a CV if you have loco facing the 'wrong' direction.

Why? Is this a problem with the Massoth software? If so suggest that they update it. You shouldn't have to mess around with CVs to build either a double header (two loco addresses get controlled as if they were one) or a multi unit consist (a temporary MU address is assigned to any number of locos). As you know I don't use Massoth, but on my Lenz system you simply tell the system which way a loco is facing at the point you join it into the DH or MU, no CV programming is required. Which CV do you think you have to mess with Mike?

PS: did you ever find the missing poll from your street car?

 

[Cliff George]

Also I would have to chip all of my 'helper' motorised rolling stock.

A couple of thoughts.

1) Does the Massoth support running one analogue loco (zero streaching) at the same time as chipped digital locos AND does it allow the analogue loco to be part of a DH ot MU. If so you may get away without chipping your 'helper' rolling stock to start with, although motors are probably more prone to getting hot and early failure on zero streaching so chipping would always be better. Also speed matching your digital locos with the analogue helper stock may be a problem.

2) To make it easier some of my locos that always run together are programmed with the same loco address so I don't have to bother with DUing or MUing them, although I can't run the locos on their own at the same time (but I can run them on their own if the other loco with the same address is not on the layout at the same time). Also of course in this case the direction that the locos run does matter. I've done this with my two Amtrack diesels and a couple of Stainz. I would have thought that your 'helper' rolling stock was a good candidate for this treatment.

 

[muns]

There was a issue in the navigator firmware whereby you could not set the direction of the locos in a consit (to avoid having to change CV29) but I am not sure it has been resolved/implemented. Will try and remember to ask them next time I call.

Nice streetcars......just added a emotion S to one - they are a bugger to get to the decoder tho (roof off, sub roof off, cabs off, seats out......dadah....there's the decoder. have another to do soon...will try and take some pics.

 

[Cliff George]

You can run an analogue loco at the same time as a chipped one but not in a navigator programmed consist.
You can also, although I dont believe Massoth recommend it run more than one analogue loco at the same time.
CV29 will change direction of a chipped loco but if a loco is programmed to run in reverse, why not have it running in reverse in the consist?
I can run 2 off 2 motor LCE trains both of which have 1 motor programmed in reverse in a consist quite easily. However the contraints laid down in the Navvi instructions must be followed.

Sounding a bit like a super intellectual there Roland

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Cliff, Muns and Roly

Well I did know a bit about the analogue loco situation on the Massoth but was told that it might be only one analogue loco that could be run.
BUT...
As the Navigator shows an analogue loco as being at address 0000 then I presume all analogue locos will be at this address but is there a limit on what the Massoth can handle power-wise on analogue?
My analogue multiple headers will be either made up from totally USAT diesels or from Bachmann big hauler Annies (assisted with helper motorised rolling stock). I also have one that is an Aristo and a USAT diesel (pretty closely matched).
The USAT diesels are all matched as they have the same motor blocks (I know there may be differences due to tolerances etc etc). The Big haulers are pretty well matched and the 'helper rolling stock use Aristo or USAT motor blocks that are pretty close, in speed characteristics, to the Big Haulers.
The fly in the ointment on running on DCC in analogue mode is that they nearly all have analogue sound units!

The Massoth should see all of the 'analogue' units as one loco but is there this limit on amount of power that it will allow to analogue.
What if only analogue locos are running and no chipped ones, does this change the situation?
BUT....
The stress put on analogue motor blocks running with power from a DCC source is a real worry.
The chipping of all of my locos is not going to happen quickly, as I would want good sound like with the currently installed analogue Phoenix 2K or Soundtraxx Sierra units so it would be very expensive. The Phoenix 2K cards could be wired up to a DCC chip but the Soundtraxx ones need a bit of complex circuitry to do this due to the way that they are configured.

......so this is why I am in no-mans land. My solution of the 'Big Switches' will be on my layout for some time I think!

Muns....The american DCC kit like Zimo and NCE do allow DCC consists with locos being orientated either way so I imagine that Massoth would have this but as they are working from a predominately European slant and European locos tend to 'elephant' in consists I expect that it was not a consideration when the software was configured whereas in the States it would have been...just a thought...probably totally wrong of course

I found this info but am not sure what part would be applicable to Massoth equipment....

"DCC systems offer three choices for consist control:
The Basic Consisting method is to reprogram all the locomotives in a consist to the same address and run them on one throttle. In this case all the locomotives must be headed in the same direction, head to tail, head to tail, head to tail.
Advanced Consisting stores the consist information in each decoder. The locomotives can be added to and deleted from the consist in any orientation head to head or tail to tail. This method requires that all locomotives in the consist be equipped with decoders that support this feature. This method allows you to set up a consist that will be "transportable" from one DCC layout to another but you must be sure to always put the locomotives back on the track in the same order and orientation you programmed them for or you can get some unexpected results.
"Universal" Consisting stores the consist information in the command station and allows you to consist locomotives with any DCC decoder as well as an analog locomotive. The locomotives can be added to and deleted from the consist in any orientation head to head or tail to tail.
The number of locomotives you can consist varies widely from system to system."

 

[tramcar trev]

All far to complex for me. I'll try to remain happy running my trams with automatic section control.
I'm jealous of those streetcars though.....

 

[beavercreek]

All far to complex for me. I'll try to remain happy running my trams with automatic section control.
I'm jealous of those streetcars though.....

Hi Trev
I know exactly what you mean mate.
The street cars are a bit of an aberration for my line being basically Rio Grande with a freelance 'BCRR' element, but they were going for a song at different times and I really do like the look of them. I got the New Orleans one first but fancied the livery of the NYC as I could imagine Beaver Creek Transportation company buying one in to use on the 'local' line.
Lucky they are DCC for the recent learning curve !!

Last journey of the night

 

[whatlep]

The Massoth issue with orientation of locos in consists (all facing forwards or all backwards) has been around for at least a couple of years. I asked about it very soon after GSC started and got a reply via the Massoth Forum to the effect that they'd forgotten about the requirement and would fix it in a new software release. As far as I'm aware the issue still exists.

For this reason, I still have an LGB universal controller as well as a Massoth one on my MTS3 setup. The LGB software (supplied by Massoth!!) can do exactly what Beavercreek wants - mixed orientation within a consist - though a consist is limited to only two locos.

 

[beavercreek]

Thank you whatlep
It is interesting that LGB software has the feature and Massoth doesn't. Is the feature in the chip rom or is it in the central station or handset?
'Tis a shame that the LGB variant is only for two locos. If I want to run a train with a fair length or with the heavy streamline coaches, I do need three locos or even four!!

 

[ntpntpntp]

...As the Navigator shows an analogue loco as being at address 0000 then I presume all analogue locos will be at this address but is there a limit on what the Massoth can handle power-wise on analogue?

I don't see how any DCC system could regulate the power for zero-stretching: whatever amps it can put out to the track is available to and shared by all locos/stock/accessories that draw power. Plonk several analogue locos on the track and they'll all draw whatever amps they need, up to the limit of the system.

 

[beavercreek]

...As the Navigator shows an analogue loco as being at address 0000 then I presume all analogue locos will be at this address but is there a limit on what the Massoth can handle power-wise on analogue?

I don't see how any DCC system could regulate the power for zero-stretching: whatever amps it can put out to the track is available to and shared by all locos/stock/accessories that draw power. Plonk several analogue locos on the track and they'll all draw whatever amps they need, up to the limit of the system.

But everyone I have spoken to has said that really only one analogue loco should be used with DCC....... I have thought that this is really because only one loco can be directly controlled so more than one would not be individually controlled as if they were actually DCC and just act well..like DC control...... but still not sure about this.

Has anyone had more than one analogue loco working successfully on DCC (Massoth or LGB systems)??

 

[ntpntpntp]

Yes, they'd all respond to the same control just like on DC, and of course will have different running characteristics just as they would on DC. I expect the "single loco" recommendation is simply so that you treat the additional loco like any other individually addessable loco on the track.

Mind you, it wouldn't surprise me if too many unchipped items drawing power were to have a detremental effect on the DCC waveform.

Personally, I'd strongly recommend chipping everything you want to run on DCC, and avoid any risk of damage to the motor through long term overheating.

 

[beavercreek]

Personally, I'd strongly recommend chipping everything you want to run on DCC, and avoid any risk of damage to the motor through long term overheating.

I'll just give up eating and paying the bills then .....

 

[ntpntpntp]

That's why I've never gone to the dark side with my N gauge collection - although the decoders are cheaper there's just too many required!

 

[Cliff George]

Personally, I'd strongly recommend chipping everything you want to run on DCC, and avoid any risk of damage to the motor through long term overheating.

Yes I tend to agree Nick, as I do that you can have any number of analogue locos running at the same time, up to the power limit of the system. As already said all analogue locos will move on control of loco zero, just like all chipped locos with the same address would move on commands to their address. I think that having all of your unchipped 'helper' wagons on the track at the same time controlled via address zero would physically work.

One supposed problem with zero streching is that it dramatically reduces the number of DCC command that can be broadcast to chipped locos. I don't think that is a big issue for us G Scalers because we probably don't have enought different locos running at the same time to enable us to notice the difference, although knowing how many locos you have Mike maybe you would

 

[whatlep]

It is interesting that LGB software has the feature and Massoth doesn't. Is the feature in the chip rom or is it in the central station or handset?

The "intelligence" in terms of loco characteristics and point routes is built into the handsets via programmable ROM. Hence you can use the Massoth Navigator handset with many central stations and you have to tell eavch new one you buy about all the locos, point routes and connect any handset to any central station so long as the protocol for data communication is the same or can be converted en route. Shropshire Lad has an excellent setup with DiMax Navvies hung off a Lenz Xpressnet system, for example.

 

[Zerogee]

It is interesting that LGB software has the feature and Massoth doesn't. Is the feature in the chip rom or is it in the central station or handset?

The "intelligence" in terms of loco characteristics and point routes is built into the handsets via programmable ROM. Hence you can use the Massoth Navigator handset with many central stations and you have to tell eavch new one you buy about all the locos, point routes and connect any handset to any central station so long as the protocol for data communication is the same or can be converted en route. Shropshire Lad has an excellent setup with DiMax Navvies hung off a Lenz Xpressnet system, for example.

Hi Peter (or Muns, or anyone else who can answer this) - can I just ask a basic question to clarify something that I'm not 100% sure about?
When you have a Dimax and one Navigator, you program all your loco fleet into the Navi and it stores the details of each of them, both in the Navi's own memory AND in that of your Dimax station. Now, if you later buy a second Navigator and connect it to your Dimax, do you have to manually enter all your loco details into that one as well, or does it read and copy the info that is already stored in the central station's own memory?

Jon.

 

[beavercreek]

It is interesting that LGB software has the feature and Massoth doesn't. Is the feature in the chip rom or is it in the central station or handset?

The "intelligence" in terms of loco characteristics and point routes is built into the handsets via programmable ROM. Hence you can use the Massoth Navigator handset with many central stations and you have to tell eavch new one you buy about all the locos, point routes and connect any handset to any central station so long as the protocol for data communication is the same or can be converted en route. Shropshire Lad has an excellent setup with DiMax Navvies hung off a Lenz Xpressnet system, for example.

So why does the consisting with 'any which way' loco orientation not work on a Massoth central station but does on an LGB one or is it the LGB 'universal' controller that has this feature and the navigator not....me a bit confused now.. If it is the LGB universal controller that has the 'any which way' loco consisting...does this work if it is used with a Massoth central station?

 

[whatlep]

So why does the consisting with 'any which way' loco orientation not work on a Massoth central station but does on an LGB one or is it the LGB 'universal' controller that has this feature and the navigator not....me a bit confused now.. If it is the LGB universal controller that has the 'any which way' loco consisting...does this work if it is used with a Massoth central station?

Yes, it is the LGB universal controller that has "multi-way" consisting, but it's limited to just two locos. You can use one attached to a Massoth dentral station, but only via a 8138501 "transducer" (i.e. bus protocol converter).