Possible battery convert with some questions
- Thread starter Madman
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For those that are concerned about operating signals and points with battery R/C locos and no power to the tracks.
Don't worry. There are other ways of controlling them.
Air power for example.
Simply run air tubes to each controlled device from a central control panel controlled by solenoids. Easier, simpler and less expensive than having a separate DCC decoder for each turnout and/or wiring them in from a central command station.
One connection at each controlled device and no wiring to fail.
Next excuse???
Don't worry. There are other ways of controlling them.
Air power for example.
Simply run air tubes to each controlled device from a central control panel controlled by solenoids. Easier, simpler and less expensive than having a separate DCC decoder for each turnout and/or wiring them in from a central command station.
One connection at each controlled device and no wiring to fail.
Next excuse???
I think "preference" might be more appropriate than "excuse" Tony?Tony Walsham said:For those that are concerned about operating signals and points with battery R/C locos and no power to the tracks.
Don't worry. There are other ways of controlling them.
Air power for example.
Simply run air tubes to each controlled device from a central control panel controlled by solenoids. Easier, simpler and less expensive than having a separate DCC decoder for each turnout and/or wiring them in from a central command station.
One connection at each controlled device and no wiring to fail.
Next excuse???
Tony Walsham said:For those that are concerned about operating signals and points with battery R/C locos and no power to the tracks.
Don't worry. There are other ways of controlling them.
Air power for example.
Simply run air tubes to each controlled device from a central control panel controlled by solenoids. Easier, simpler and less expensive than having a separate DCC decoder for each turnout and/or wiring them in from a central command station.
One connection at each controlled device and no wiring to fail.
Next excuse???
Don't need one - you haven't provided a solution!
Read my original post again: I want r/c from where I choose to sit for my switches and signals, not a central control panel and yards of wire or air power. Keep trying though!Still waiting costings from the battery advocates for my locos (6 LGB Mallet, 2 2095 diesel, plus Piko railbus + 2 Stainz).....
plus now air powered turnouts too.... (that's 13 turnouts, which currently operate from 2 Massoth units - today's new cost £110.30, plus about £15 quids worth of wire)
P.S. I believe that the Locolinc system can address the points r/c issue, but I can't find any details of how the point system works on their website, nor UK costs/ sources. Handset also looks bulky and non-intuitive compared to Tony's system and the one I have from Cliff Barker.
I did read the post.
The central station for the solenoids to operate the air powered turnouts would be easily radio controlled.
I can't offer exact pricing in the UK for converting the locos you mention. Perhaps a bit more research on your part will confirm my comments. All I can do is reassure you that in other places battery R/C will compete cost wise very effectively with track powered DCC.
The central station for the solenoids to operate the air powered turnouts would be easily radio controlled.
I can't offer exact pricing in the UK for converting the locos you mention. Perhaps a bit more research on your part will confirm my comments. All I can do is reassure you that in other places battery R/C will compete cost wise very effectively with track powered DCC.
In almost five years into the hobby I guess I have, more or less, formulated my modus operandi. I have no issues with track operation: it being the norm here. I do, however, have the option of using a battery car (it can be a gondola, boxcar/stock car or a coal hopper). Cleaning track I find good exercise and of course gives the opportunity to inspect the track for unwanted obstacles or damage - not to mention bird droppings.*
I use the battery option on occasions where dampness (not wetness) makes cleaning the track impossible. Batteries used are a pair of 9.6V NiMH in parallel.
The Aristo-Craft 27Mhz. Train Engineer is the controlling method. The TE receiver for the battery car has been mounted on a protective plastic base which allows it to be sited in any of the types of rolling stock mentioned above. I have four Aristo-Craft locos which have the battery, as supplied when new, switch option and connecting plugs. A good system, in my opinion, especially if you are inept at soldering, re-wiring or generally tampering with locos innards. etc..
One thing, of which we can be sure, is that battery control methods are improving and will increase as times passes. The merits of costs, it seems to me, are only when making an your initial decision about how to power your trains. If you already have suitable mains powers supplies then good batteries are not necessarily a cheap alternative: besides unless you use solar power then mains electricity is needed to recharge them (unless you are in the sticks/boonies and run a generator ( WOW! the price of diesel fuel in the UK :crying
.
* Actually bird droppings on handled rolling stock, especially wheels, can be a cause of illness. I was reminded of this in a recent Fred Dibnah TV programme when he said he had once become ill and bedridden for a week due to pigeon droppings!! :Looser:
I use the battery option on occasions where dampness (not wetness) makes cleaning the track impossible. Batteries used are a pair of 9.6V NiMH in parallel.
The Aristo-Craft 27Mhz. Train Engineer is the controlling method. The TE receiver for the battery car has been mounted on a protective plastic base which allows it to be sited in any of the types of rolling stock mentioned above. I have four Aristo-Craft locos which have the battery, as supplied when new, switch option and connecting plugs. A good system, in my opinion, especially if you are inept at soldering, re-wiring or generally tampering with locos innards. etc..
One thing, of which we can be sure, is that battery control methods are improving and will increase as times passes. The merits of costs, it seems to me, are only when making an your initial decision about how to power your trains. If you already have suitable mains powers supplies then good batteries are not necessarily a cheap alternative: besides unless you use solar power then mains electricity is needed to recharge them (unless you are in the sticks/boonies and run a generator ( WOW! the price of diesel fuel in the UK :crying
.* Actually bird droppings on handled rolling stock, especially wheels, can be a cause of illness. I was reminded of this in a recent Fred Dibnah TV programme when he said he had once become ill and bedridden for a week due to pigeon droppings!! :Looser:
I think Devonian sums matters up nicely.
To follow up my post re my own system's battery life, I think I have sussed the problem. This afternoon I intended to do another test, having rewired my Stainz to avoid all the installed circuitry (so no front light). As expected, my AA cells were flat (after 3 weeks without use) so I charged them up. The same test train as pictured worked for precisely 10 minutes, then stopped dead with no power. I suspect that - as noted in an earlier post - my AA cells have been fried due to current draw. I am now about to risk some Hybrio cells to see if they fare any better, but I think the long-term answer has to be a 12v sealed lead acid cell which, intriguingly, is cheaper than 10 AA cells! I'll report back when I have some more news.... 8|
To follow up my post re my own system's battery life, I think I have sussed the problem. This afternoon I intended to do another test, having rewired my Stainz to avoid all the installed circuitry (so no front light). As expected, my AA cells were flat (after 3 weeks without use) so I charged them up. The same test train as pictured worked for precisely 10 minutes, then stopped dead with no power. I suspect that - as noted in an earlier post - my AA cells have been fried due to current draw. I am now about to risk some Hybrio cells to see if they fare any better, but I think the long-term answer has to be a 12v sealed lead acid cell which, intriguingly, is cheaper than 10 AA cells! I'll report back when I have some more news.... 8|
yb281 said:
Yes, but I absolve him from any responsibility for issues with them. Any problems are most likely the result of my own line's peculiarities and/or something I may have done or not done.
Testing has been halted after 45 minutes due to heavy rain! I will continue tomorrow, weather permitting. The things I do for you lot....
whatlep P.S. I believe that the Locolinc system can address the points r/c issue, but I can't find any details of how the point system works on their website, nor UK costs/ sources. Handset also looks bulky and non-intuitive compared to Tony's system and the one I have from Cliff Barker.
I did say that locolinc looked old fashioned, I think the transmitters are in an old portable phone case,!!!
If I was starting again it would be Beltrol or Barker, but the locolinc is working well for what I want,, there is one uk dealer who was on the forum I cannot find his name but will keep looking, the turnouts control unit is a stand alone unit but will operate air or motor units, its a bit industrial but thats why I like it,I would prefer as you do seperate turnouts control but wire less,
Peter,
What capacity are the AA cells?
What brand are the AA cells?
Without wishing to be accusatory or condescending, did you isolate all the loco track pick ups before wiring the batteries into the loco circuit?
Whilst you can use spring holders for batteries it is ultimately not a very good idea. Where the batteries contact the springs can corrode and when it does, a greater resistance is created. This leads to heat build up and eventual spring failure. If the current draw is going to be over 1 amp use tagged cells and solder them together.
What capacity are the AA cells?
What brand are the AA cells?
Without wishing to be accusatory or condescending, did you isolate all the loco track pick ups before wiring the batteries into the loco circuit?
Whilst you can use spring holders for batteries it is ultimately not a very good idea. Where the batteries contact the springs can corrode and when it does, a greater resistance is created. This leads to heat build up and eventual spring failure. If the current draw is going to be over 1 amp use tagged cells and solder them together.
An alternative to controlling signals and turnouts is the LGB EPL system. It doesn't require power to the track, as it operates on it's own AC circuit. All you need are loco magnets to operate the devices.
Hi Tony. The AAs are 10 2600mAh cells labelled Bluebird and part of the system supplier's kit. As you surmise, they are in a spring holder, but that too was brand new about 4 months ago and is still bright and shiny. I am reasonably sure that the cells have failed in some way. It may not be all of them, of course, but I haven't had time to check each one yet.Tony Walsham said:
Regarding pickups, absolutely! Getting rid of skates and plungers was done right up front and it is quite remarkable how much freer running LGB locos are without them. I have posted elsewhere about the merits of "de-skating" locos for reducing drag and firmly encourage that they be removed even for track power (though others, naturally, have different views).
My conclusion - pending more testing today - is that Del Taparo's recommendation of a sealed lead-acid battery is the way to go, rather than AA cells.
Fully charged 10 x AA size rechargeables should read about 13 - 14 volts. If they are less than that then yes I too would suspect cell failure.
I take it you are aware that a 12 volt gel cell of the size Del describes is rated at 1.2 AH. That is, less than half the capacity, and therefore run time, of the AA's.
Also low cost Gel cells, unlike NiCd and NiMh, drop their voltage progressively as they discharge. The deep discharge type are expensive.
NiCd and NiMh drop initially, then hold the voltage until almost discharged then crash at the end.
Personally I would go for the LSD NiMh AA cells such as Sanyo ENELOOP and not just regular NiMh.
I take it you are aware that a 12 volt gel cell of the size Del describes is rated at 1.2 AH. That is, less than half the capacity, and therefore run time, of the AA's.
Also low cost Gel cells, unlike NiCd and NiMh, drop their voltage progressively as they discharge. The deep discharge type are expensive.
NiCd and NiMh drop initially, then hold the voltage until almost discharged then crash at the end.
Personally I would go for the LSD NiMh AA cells such as Sanyo ENELOOP and not just regular NiMh.
[font="verdana,geneva"]I use 2 of these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/9-6V-2600mAh-...sGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item53e4c1aa8e < Link To 9.6V 2600mAh AA packs in my RC-converted Bachmann Annie.[/font]
[font="verdana,geneva"]These seem a good price, and have an adequate charge/discharge current rating.[/font]
[font="verdana,geneva"]They are charged, as are all my other packs, by a Ripmax Pro-Peak SuperNova intelligent charger.[/font]
It works out automatically how many cells and how fast to charge them.
[font="verdana,geneva"]These seem a good price, and have an adequate charge/discharge current rating.[/font]
[font="verdana,geneva"]They are charged, as are all my other packs, by a Ripmax Pro-Peak SuperNova intelligent charger.[/font]
It works out automatically how many cells and how fast to charge them.
Thanks Tony and Hamish for their last postings. Useful info. As I write, my test train is pottering around very happily, having done 1 hour today in addition to the 45 minutes yesterday. It seems pretty certain that at least some of my original batteries had become no good. I will test them later today to see if it's one or many.
Regarding the sealed lead acid cells, Tony's words are very helpful. It's easy enough in UK to get 12v 3.4mAh lead-acid cells which are cheaper than the equivalent AA cells and - obviously - have a longer nominal run time, but I will have to think about the voltage implications before taking further action. This battery stuff isn't as simple as I expected!
Regarding the sealed lead acid cells, Tony's words are very helpful. It's easy enough in UK to get 12v 3.4mAh lead-acid cells which are cheaper than the equivalent AA cells and - obviously - have a longer nominal run time, but I will have to think about the voltage implications before taking further action. This battery stuff isn't as simple as I expected!
Another thing you may wish to consider is the weight. A lead acid installation is often heavier, this could be an advantage if mounted in a loco and more tractive effort is required but may have an adverse effect run time. If in a trailing car then the extra weight is usually bad news.whatlep said:Regarding the sealed lead acid cells, Tony's words are very helpful. It's easy enough in UK to get 12v 3.4mAh lead-acid cells which are cheaper than the equivalent AA cells and - obviously - have a longer nominal run time, but I will have to think about the voltage implications before taking further action. This battery stuff isn't as simple as I expected!