Possible battery convert with some questions

[MRail]

I didn't mean to imply that track power isn't fun....
....I have built a railway with automatic, self running, self station stops, station anouncements, and various other effects over the past twenty years.

Just having a gentle wind-up (not clockwork).

Sounds good after all.

 

[Dieseldonkey]

I've been looking into this too. Have a read at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery Hope its of use. Dieseldonkey

 

[Tony Walsham]

I followed that up with a click through to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery
It seems we will soon be able to get some high and very high capacity SubC and D size cells.
Down the bottom the claim is made that this chemistry has:
Higher instantaneous current discharge capability
Which will require some more research as it contradicts what my battery supplier has told me. I am always open to being corrected.

 

[whatlep]

Eventually it will become evident to most Large Scalers track power is a waste of time, effort and most importantly money. Battery power solves all the problems. I hear this lack of run time foible all the time.

I've read this thread with interest since I thought long and hard about converting to battery power before re-establishing my line (Ruritanian Railways) in 2007/8. I didn't, but I continue to dabble with battery power using a Cliff Barker system. I'm glad I didn't abandon track power: battery power, like live steam, is something I use for a specific purpose. For battery power, that's with small 4-wheel locos which have pick-up issues on any form of track power. For those, battery power is very handy indeed, but on the wider view it simply is not a like-for-like substitute for DCC track power. Battery power does not solve all problems. At least not yet - technology may well get there.

My problems with battery power - as found in real life running, rather than theory - can be summarised briefly:
1) Lack of available cells - even with LSD cells (I use Uniross Hybrio), I have found that it's rare to have a set of cells immediately available that have a full charge and can provide a decent running time. Typically, I need to give them 15-20 minutes charge. About as long as cleaning my track after a long absence from running....
2) Battery technology still isn't adequate. My locos typically draw over 2 amps each uphill and I need to double head with a reasonable train. I can't do that with battery power: I can only run "tiddlers" - a Stainz plus four LGB 300mm trucks. As Tony has pointed out, drawing over 1 amp reduces battery life too. Even with powerful 2600mAh NiMH cells, running time even for a "tiddler" is no more than 50 minutes. When I can run continuously for 3 hours with a full 6 coach train drawing 4.5 amps, I'll be ripe for conversion.
3) Battery power doesn't let me operate points or signals remotely (I use r/c DCC for that). So I have to have another system in addition to batteries and use two r/c controllers when running a train, not one.
4) Cost. Tony and others have produced marvellous systems, but for a reasonable layout with multiple locos and/or multiple trains running at once you will need numerous receivers, battery packs and chargers. When I did the maths, the projected costs of battery power on a like-for-like basis (one loco; one receiver+batteries) were noticeably higher than DCC. On a small layout, I could see battery power being adequate, though it still won't cover point and signal control.

 

[Bram]

Surely Peter you charge up your batteries after use so that they are ready for the next running session. That's the way to do it, said Punch

 

[Madman]

Well said Peter. That is precisely what I am doing or trying to accomplish. Most of my running is smaller four wheeled locos and rolling stock. I have a couple of larger locos that will remain track powered, and will operate more for guests. I've been teetering back and forth with R/C and simple battery operation, but my son countered with "why go half way when you may want R/C capability since your railway has many not easily accessable areas". I have been in contact with Del Taparo and he has answered all of my questions about the various products he has. It's just a matter of making the investment. By the way, be carefull with those LSD batteries, they may give you hallucinations .

 

[yb281]

2) Battery technology still isn't adequate. My locos typically draw over 2 amps each uphill and I need to double head with a reasonable train. I can't do that with battery power: I can only run "tiddlers" - a Stainz plus four LGB 300mm trucks. As Tony has pointed out, drawing over 1 amp reduces battery life too. Even with powerful 2800mAh NiMH cells, running time even for a "tiddler" is no more than 50 minutes. When I can run continuously for 3 hours with a full 6 coach train drawing 4.5 amps, I'll be ripe for conversion.

While I agree with everything else, I find your battery duration results a little puzzling Peter. I'm getting well in excess of 4 hours running from my battery locos using a similar set-up?

 

[Del Tapparo]

2) Battery technology still isn't adequate. My locos typically draw over 2 amps each uphill and I need to double head with a reasonable train. I can't do that with battery power:

Why not? The Lithium-Ion batteries I use have a maximum discharge current of 4.4A, so that shouldn't be a problem. Both my Railboss and Tony's RCS systems can handle double-heading, so that's not a problem. So I must assume it is because you are using AA batteries. There is your problem.

 

[mmts]

2) Battery technology still isn't adequate. My locos typically draw over 2 amps each uphill and I need to double head with a reasonable train. I can't do that with battery power: I can only run "tiddlers" - a Stainz plus four LGB 300mm trucks. As Tony has pointed out, drawing over 1 amp reduces battery life too. Even with powerful 2800mAh NiMH cells, running time even for a "tiddler" is no more than 50 minutes. When I can run continuously for 3 hours with a full 6 coach train drawing 4.5 amps, I'll be ripe for conversion.

While I agree with everything else, I find your battery duration results a little puzzling Peter. I'm getting well in excess of 4 hours running from my battery locos using a similar set-up?

Dunno how this compares but today ive been running my v51/52 with 2x7.2v batterys and it was running "on cruise control" for just short of 3(Three) hours. Im happy with that....its mainly going to be used at the model engineers where the track is unpowered
Twin motors and two bogie coaches and a baggage car

 

[MR SPOCK]

Something I have always found puzzling is why not many systems charge the batteries when the loco is idle,on the track, via track feed, mine run happily around all day, never go flat on me, and are ready to use next time without any extra fiddle faddle, saying that I ran three locos today that had not been used for a few weeks and after a few hours outside, including running about were charged up at the end of the session, ​

 

[Del Tapparo]

Something I have always found puzzling is why not many systems charge the batteries when the loco is idle,on the track, via track feed, mine run happily around all day, never go flat on me, and are ready to use next time without any extra fiddle faddle, saying that I ran three locos today that had not been used for a few weeks and after a few hours outside, including running about were charged up at the end of the session, ​

Whatever works for you, but that does have a few drawbacks: You need to maintain "relatively" clean track for charging, and you are now limited to running only one train at a time (which I agree is not a huge setback for most folks).

 

[MR SPOCK]

Hi Del.​

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I run six or eight loco's at a time, I have a car battery that feeds the track and is charged by solar power, each loco has a sealed lead acid battery inside it,these give the current needed, and are stable, I use locolinc for control, I never clean my track after a few runs around the wheels do that for me, each loco has a 10cent charger fitted, and I can take my loco's to live steam tracks and they will work without any shorts etc, yep it looks old fashioned but it has been thought thro, and yep its expensive , so is a cold beer in Cornwall but thats life,​

first pic is RDC with a small lead acid, on test, the battery is at the extreme right​

second pic is PIKO sitting /charging up between trips

Something I have always found puzzling is why not many systems charge the batteries when the loco is idle,on the track, via track feed, mine run happily around all day, never go flat on me, and are ready to use next time without any extra fiddle faddle, saying that I ran three locos today that had not been used for a few weeks and after a few hours outside, including running about were charged up at the end of the session, ​

Whatever works for you, but that does have a few drawbacks: You need to maintain "relatively" clean track for charging, and you are now limited to running only one train at a time (which I agree is not a huge setback for most folks).

 

[Bram]

I agree with Mel on the running duration Peter, I have inclines on my set up and I also get three to four hours out of a charge.

 

[whatlep]

Chaps

I'll try to answer your various observations as briefly as possible. Please remember that I'm not against battery power, but I do question that it is the single answer to all problems.

My line is steeply graded and has R1 loops at each end. When testing my Cliff Barker system I took careful measurements of both voltage and amperage running the test train, pictured below. The Stainz naturally had all pickups/ skates removed, lest anyone wonder. Yes, I did have the cells fully charged, having found them low in voltage after 2 weeks of inactivity having charged them after last use. In respect of shelf discharge, the Hybrio (low discharge) cells are much better, but also much more expensive (typically £6 for 4 inc P&P) and those I've found so far typically have lower amperage capacity (mine are 2100mAh).

On the flat, as pictured, the loco consumed 6.8 volts at a pleasing speed and about 660mA. On the rising gradient, current draw increased to 900mA. On the test I was using 10 AA cells, all nominally rated at 2600mAh. All this is identical to Mel's setup. Why so short a run time? Frankly I don't know, but the weight of train, characteristics of the Stainz motor and my layout must all be factors. At some point, Mel and I must get together and do some side by side trials. He and I like testing....

I notice that battery life keeps being brought up as if moving to bigger, more capable cells will be a magic bullet. It won't. I've not yet seen a solution which addresses the issues I raised of operating ancillary equipment (points etc), nor a side-by-side cost analysis which convinces me that battery power is for me. Emphasis on the "for me". I repeat - I see considerable advantages in batteries on a layout of limited extent for small locos which might otherwise have pickup problems .

For info, can someone tell me the cost of the suggested lithium-ion batteries, plus - presumably - special charger with 4+ amp-hour ability and a UK source?

 

[yb281]

At some point, Mel and I must get together and do some side by side trials. He and I like testing....

 

[whatlep]

I run six or eight loco's at a time, I have a car battery that feeds the track and is charged by solar power, each loco has a sealed lead acid battery inside it,these give the current needed, and are stable, I use locolinc for control, I never clean my track after a few runs around the wheels do that for me, each loco has a 10cent charger fitted, and I can take my loco's to live steam tracks and they will work without any shorts etc, yep it looks old fashioned but it has been thought thro, and yep its expensive , so is a cold beer in Cornwall but thats life,

first pic is RDC with a small lead acid, on test, the battery is at the extreme right​

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That's a very interesting posting. Thank you.
Could you give details here or elsewhere about the components you have used and their costs if purchased today? I don't care if it looks old-fashioned: so do I!

 

[stockers]

Surely Peter you charge up your batteries after use so that they are ready for the next running session. That's the way to do it, said Punch

I think you have missed part of the discussion Bram. Charged batteries loose a fair bit of power sitting on the shelf.

 

[stockers]

I have just had an add up. I have run 18 different train configs today using 9 different locos. That could be a bit difficult with battery power.
I would have to have all locos battery fitted or a battery set in loads of wagons and coaches.
If I use battery wagons it somewhat defeats the objective - I could (and do) use wagons as additional pickups for the 4 wheelers, but shunting, locos changes (without the big hand) become impossible. I enjoy the fun of selecting the next locos and bring the previous one on shed and running out its replacement.
As for point control etc. Peter said it.

 

[MR SPOCK]

That's a very interesting posting. Thank you.
Could you give details here or elsewhere about the components you have used and their costs if purchased today? I don't care if it looks old-fashioned: so do I!

I will do it as a seperate topic as I am sure there are others that use the same system

 

[Bram]

Surely Peter you charge up your batteries after use so that they are ready for the next running session. That's the way to do it, said Punch

I think you have missed part of the discussion Bram. Charged batteries loose a fair bit of power sitting on the shelf.

I think that depends on how long you have the batteries sitting on the shelf