Marklin/LGB decoders and JMRI

[Cliff George]

I agree with Dave, the mode CV in 112, 115, 118 etc would indicate things like Marslight, Gryolight, Strobe, Double Strobe, No effect etc. According to the manual there are 16 different modes, but I have not been able to find a definitive list of what these 16 modes are! Has anyone had any luck, or maybe even tried them all?

CV 113, 116, 119 etc would be a way to dim function output with 255 being full brightness for lights and 0 off, just as Dave said.

CV 114, 117, 120 etc would control the frequency with which the effect occurred, again just as Dave said.

The controls work on front and rear lights and AUX 1 to 6. On the 24741 the cab lighting is on AUX 3 so that could be controlled. AUX 1 is the smoke generator and if there is any merit in using the mode, dimming values, rate on this feature is doubtful. Presumably AUX 2, AUX 4-6 do nothing on this model.

 

[PhilP]

So we can make educated guesses, and it obviously varies by loco.
The fact we are having to guess proves my point. - We need more information / better documentation.

That, or some 'free' decoders we can mess with!

 

[ntpntpntp]

That, or some 'free' decoders we can mess with!

Yeah - send one my way so I can play on JMRI and maybe sort out a decoder template!

 

[GNB]

It would be useful if there were the equivalent to the tables at the rear of the Massoth manuals for this new decoder!

Maybe I'm being a bit slow but which new decoder do you want the values for?

If you mean the MFX decoder, look in the manual for LGB Modell der Elektrolokomotive BR 139 20755 and you will find a list of the ones used by this decoder.

You seem to be keen on the 112 group, here's a hint:

112 Mapping lights in the front, mode 0 – 16 1
113 Mapping lights in the front, dimmer 0 – 255 255
114 Mapping lights in the front, cycle 0 – 255 20
115 – 135 Mapping phys. outputs, lights in the rear, Aux 1 – 6,0 – 16 0 – 255 (compare 112 – 114)

For the MZS decoder found in LGB 28802 the CV values for that group are readable and refereed in the manual. For this loco they appear to be basic (?base) values which suggests that they are not used.

I'm at a bit of a loss why you should want to "mess with" them if they are not problematic and unused.

However I don't think that's the problem or maybe I'm more confused than I think I am?


PS I'm definitely getting older and slower!! For the CV values (range and recommended values) and their definitions it's worth repeating the reference to the document quoted in the first post by ntpntpntp and refered to by Cliff George and idlemarvel. I'm sure you've noted that for these new Marklin decoders that CV 8 can either be ID or reset. From what we now know from the values given in the respective manuals, the MFX decoders CV 8 would appear to be reset and that for the MZS decoder CV 8 refers to the manufacturer ID.

http://mediencms.maerklin.de/media.php/de/produkte/downloads/Umruestdecoder_mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_DCC.pdf

It's obvious that some of the assigned function will be different for different locos, which is clearly outlined in the comments section of the OP's referenced document. Maybe a good English translation would go some way to answering your call for better documentation .

The main problem seems to be accurately reading some of the CVs and, particularly in the case of the MFX, manipulating some of their values using conventional methodology.

PPS Has anybody tried the Marklin Central Station 2 (60213/60214/60215) in conjunction with any of the new decoder fitted LGB locos. It's currently available on Amazon UK at £464.75. Maybe that's the answer (the 60215 not the 464.75) .

Here a link to BR 99 5015 70530 loco manual which is part of the LGB starter set with the CS2 digital central controller (ca £850 for the set).

http://medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/7/pdf/70530_betrieb.pdf

Scroll to the English language section and, especially for PhilP, as if by magic, it gives a full and comprehensive list of CV values and definitions . Note the instruction for the MFX protocol"No address is required; each decoder is given a one-time, unique identifier (UID). The decoder automatically registers itself on a Central Station or a Mobile Station
with its UID-identifier. Could this be part of the problem?

 

[PhilP]

Hi GNB,
'calm down, its' just a decoder'

There should be generic information available for this family of decoders. Yes, different settings for differing loco's.

Why would I want to 'mess'? - Perhaps I want to do different / additional things with the decoder? ???

For something like the CV112 'mode' setting, a table stating what the modes are would be nice! Then, a table giving timing values for the other CV's.
Even the voltage divider settings are not intuitive. 0 - 255 (so I would guess zero = 0V. and 255 = full track voltage ?? If so, why is it set to 20 for 5V lamps?

CV 8 is a mandatory CV, the value of which is given out by the NMRA. It is the 'manufacturer ID'.
As yet, I have not found an entry for the value '131' which the decoder I have come across gives.
According to NMRA 'standards', this CV should be 'read only'. it would appear you can write a value to this CV on these decoders to force a reset.. I can only presume the value is then set back internally to the 'manufacturer ID'.

Yes, better translation would help.

The manuals state you should turn off unused protocols, so you should turn off MFX if you are not using the CS2 controller.

I have played with a CS2, at a presentation by Marklin, and there are a number of limitations for its' use for large scale outdoor layouts.
1. Tethered to transformers, track, routing devices for computer / third-party wireless.
2. Current limitations. Even when kludged to the higher setting.
3. Not very robust when you drop it on the patio!
4. Not even shower-proof.
5. No wireless throttle option. - OK, you can do this.. IF you own a smart-phone, and if you can download/install/configure the 'app', and if you buy the afore mentioned router. presently, if your phone rings, the app closes as well!
6. It is quite bulky. - This does mean most of us will be able to see the display. Though bright sunlight is a bit of a problem.

It is good for turnouts (points) though, as you get a graphic illustration of how the point is set.
MFX is a good idea, as it uses two-way communication between the CS and decoder. - but that is a technical discussion for another thread!

 

[Cliff George]

For something like the CV112 'mode' setting, a table stating what the modes are would be nice!

Agreed.

Even the voltage divider settings are not intuitive. 0 - 255 (so I would guess zero = 0V. and 255 = full track voltage ?? If so, why is it set to 20 for 5V lamps?

No, it is set to 255 by default.

CV 8 is a mandatory CV, the value of which is given out by the NMRA. It is the 'manufacturer ID'.
As yet, I have not found an entry for the value '131' which the decoder I have come across gives.

As has been said somewhere on here before 131 is Trix

 

[PhilP]

Hi Cliff,

On the loco I presently have on the bench (a Marklin fitted Nikki & Frank..) CV112 = 20 AND it (appears to have) 5V bulbs fitted.

CV8 = 131, 131 = Trix ?? Did Marklin buy-up Trix? - I could not find '131' in the listings I went through on the NMRA site. :

 

[Cliff George]

On the loco I presently have on the bench (a Marklin fitted Nikki & Frank..) CV112 = 20 AND it (appears to have) 5V bulbs fitted.

OK, different locos have different defaults I guess.

CV8 = 131, 131 = Trix ?? Did Marklin buy-up Trix? - I could not find '131' in the listings I went through on the NMRA site. :

Marklin have owned Trix since about the mid 1990's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4rklin

Yes 131 is Trix: http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/appendix_a2c_s-9.2.2.pdf

It you look at Trix decoder manuals they are very similar in terms of CVs to the new LGB MFX ones.

 

[GNB]

PhilP thanks for your comprehensive reply. All good stuff but I can't see any solutions.

I appreciate your views on the Marklin Central Station's inability to withstand a rigorous environment, it's sad that they don't build consumer electronics to Milspecs anymore. But did you actually use it to read or manipulate the CVs in the new Marklin decoders? It would also be useful to know how well the CS2 works with "conventional decoders?

It's nice to see that you are searching for solutions for as yet unidentified problems and whilst that's to be applauded, it hardly helps those folks that have reported problems with the the new decoders using their current and varied methodology.

It's not surprising that folks are put off DCC. Rather than calling it the "dark arts " maybe the "confusing arts" would be more appropriate.

As I said earlier I'm sorry I resurrected the thread, it's just added to the confusion.

 

[muns]

[quote author=PhilP link=topic=300339.msg359137#msg359137 date=1440065033]
Hi Cliff,

On the loco I presently have on the bench (a Marklin fitted Nikki & Frank..) CV112 = 20 AND it (appears to have) 5V bulbs fitted.

CV8 = 131, 131 = Trix ?? Did Marklin buy-up Trix? - I could not find `131` in the listings I went through on the NMRA site. :
[/quote]

Trix is defiantly in the list on the NMRA site.... http://nmra.org/sites/default/files/appendix_a2c_s-9.2.2.pdf



[quote author=PhilP link=topic=300339.msg359131#msg359131 date=1440061966]
CV 8 is a mandatory CV, the value of which is given out by the NMRA. It is the `manufacturer ID`.
As yet, I have not found an entry for the value `131` which the decoder I have come across gives.
According to NMRA `standards`, this CV should be `read only`. it would appear you can write a value to this CV on these decoders to force a reset.. I can only presume the value is then set back internally to the `manufacturer ID`.

[/quote]

CV8 is indeed read only in the specification but that does not stop the manufacturer handling a `Write to CV8 command` to action something such as a reset.

 

[MTheStrong]

PhilP thanks for your comprehensive reply. All good stuff but I can't see any solutions.

I appreciate your views on the Marklin Central Station's inability to withstand a rigorous environment, it's sad that they don't build consumer electronics to Milspecs anymore. But did you actually use it to read or manipulate the CVs in the new Marklin decoders? It would also be useful to know how well the CS2 works with "conventional decoders?

It's nice to see that you are searching for solutions for as yet unidentified problems and whilst that's to be applauded, it hardly helps those folks that have reported problems with the the new decoders using their current and varied methodology.

It's not surprising that folks are put off DCC. Rather than calling it the "dark arts " maybe the "confusing arts" would be more appropriate.

As I said earlier I'm sorry I resurrected the thread, it's just added to the confusion.

I have a CS2. I have not had any problems with using 'conventional' DCC chipped locos. The only issue is having to create icons for locos that do not appear on the CS database. This is not unduly difficult. Programming a loco with a 'conventional' DCC chip is likewise not difficult. I particularly like the way in which an MFX chipped loco is instantly recognised without the need to have to program its address.

 

[PhilP]

GNB (sorry, no name) ?is that a union?

Not a problem the thread coming back to life.. Probably better all this in one place!

The CS2 is great stuck on the corner of a 'layout' in a bedroom/loft/shed/garage.. Not a device to have out in the garden.
It works fine with both the new MFX, and older DCC decoders. It is a very capable beast, so there is a learning curve (possibly more so than a conventional DCC CS and handset?). Having said that, it is no more onerous than getting to grips with a Smart TV, or Sky+ box. ???

The confusion seems to have come from persons buying loco's with the new decoder, and it not working 'as is' with their existing DCC equipment. - If you choose a short address, and just set CV1, you will not have a problem.
If you have a Massoth system, and try to use the 'set address' option, it will not work properly, as the Massoth system sets a number of CV's and not necessarily in the right order for things to 'take' with the new decoder. Once you know you have to set a long address 'old school', by setting the CV's yourself, then it is fine. If a little more long-winded, and requiring some mental arithmetic!

All the 'new' loco handbooks, for loco's with the new decoder state you should turn OFF protocols not being used. - This is a step only brought on by Marklin bringing out a proprietary system.
Confusion is then compounded by CV8 not appearing to read back correctly. - This with (at least) two brands of DCC equipment.

Whilst I applaud the innovation and urge to move things on, I am less than impressed with the 'backward compatibility' problems we are facing.
As long as you remember 'it is not a Massoth decoder' so 'it does not do things the Massoth way', then you will be fine.

Now,
Who has the time, and inclination, to set CV112 from '0' through to '16' and report back what each does?? ??? :

 

[dunnyrail]

On my brand new Maerklin LGB V100 I just recently Read and Updated both the Loco Number CV1 to 27 and CV5 to 140 with no difficulties whatsoever. I use Massoth Kit on my Prog Track. My Massoth has however just been fully updated with the latest version of Software my Glendale Jcn. I wonder if that is the reason that my updates worked OK and my mates on an older system to his Allegra are not.

I have to say that some of this thread is a bit tecky for me (but I am sure very usefull), perhaps I need to read it all again and again and again!
JonD

 

[PhilP]

On my brand new Maerklin LGB V100 I just recently Read and Updated both the Loco Number CV1 to 27 and CV5 to 140 with no difficulties whatsoever. I use Massoth Kit on my Prog Track. My Massoth has however just been fully updated with the latest version of Software my Glendale Jcn. I wonder if that is the reason that my updates worked OK and my mates on an older system to his Allegra are not.

I have to say that some of this thread is a bit tecky for me (but I am sure very usefull), perhaps I need to read it all again and again and again!
JonD

In a darkened room, with a stiff drink helps!

 

[dunnyrail]

Mines an Pint of Old Perpendicullar!
JonD

 

[GNB]

GNB (sorry, no name) ?is that a union?

I'm sorry but I fail to see the relevance of that remark. Is it open season on personal abuse over my forum name or am I missing something of deeper significance?

I think an apology would be appropriate.

 

[PhilP]

GNB

A full apology if any offense was taken. I assure you none was intended.

Sorry.

 

[GNB]

GNB

A full apology if any offense was taken. I assure you none was intended.

Sorry.

Thank you for your apology. It is much appreciated.

 

[GNB]

Part of the confusion relating to problems re the working of the DCC "chips" in the currently produced LGB locomotives is that they appear to fall into two main groups.

One is the newer "MFX" that can, for example, be found in this Spreewald:

http://www.lgb.com/en/products/narrow_gauge/details.html?art_nr=24741[/url]

The link to the PDF file of the manual gives the typical CV settings for the MFX chip.

The other appears to be labelled "MZS" and can be found in this DRG class V 137 diesel electric locomotive:

http://www.lgb.com/en/products/narrow_gauge/details.html?art_nr=25522

Again the link to the PDF file gives some of the CV settings for the MFS group of decoders. Most of these decoders appear to one of our old friends, typically referred to as the "large onboard LGB Decoder" (aka LGB Onboard gross ME V3.4). Typically these can be a Massoth derived decoder.

Some of the "MFS" group are chipped with the small onboard decoder typified by this small RhB Tractor:

http://www.lgb.com/en/products/narrow_gauge/details.html?art_nr=21410

Usually the large and small onboard MZS decoders are motor (or driving) decoders only. Where such locos are supplied with an original sound function this is produced by a separate onboard chip.

Many examples of problems experienced with loco chips in these can be found within the forum.

Here's a recent MFX chip problem in a newer Niiki and Frank (note the older N & F's are MFS):

https://www.gscalecentral.net/index.php?topic=300311.0

Here's an MZS problem in an older large RhB Class Ge 4/4 II:

https://www.gscalecentral.net/index.php?topic=300337.msg337413#msg337413

Note that newer Ge 4/4 II's are usually MFX and older N&F's are usually MZS chipped locomotives.

In the interest of reducing a little of the confusion it might therefore be useful if folks identified their problems or addressed their questions using either the MFX or MZS qualifier. You can look up the possible type of chip in the loco by referring to LGB database given in this link:

http://www.lgb.com/en/products.html

My own particular and minor problems with MZS chipped locos (aka Large Onboard LGB decoder) have been well aired in the past and my answer in regard the the OP's original query should be disregarded.

Thanks to ntpntpntp for raising the topic. One should always be wary of the seemingly innocent phrase "Out of purely academic interest.." !!!

 

[GNB]

I have a CS2. I have not had any problems with using 'conventional' DCC chipped locos. The only issue is having to create icons for locos that do not appear on the CS database. This is not unduly difficult. Programming a loco with a 'conventional' DCC chip is likewise not difficult. I particularly like the way in which an MFX chipped loco is instantly recognised without the need to have to program its address.

Thanks for reply MTheStrong. I noticed your comments in an earlier thread (https://www.gscalecentral.net/index.php?topic=299019.msg318125#msg318125) that had a link to the new CS2 manual (http://www.rocousa.com/MARKLIN/60215_cs_gb.pdf).

It looks like an interesting system that provides a proprietary "plug and play" solution but with enough features to allow to delve into the inner workings.

Can I ask some supplementary questions?

Is it easy to read the CV values from either the MFX or MZS chipped locomotives?

How far does it allows you reset the setting on an MFX chipped locomotive to restore the default values for that locomotive? I might assume it might store the defaults from a dataset for locomotives that it recognises. I wonder how it handles the MZS chipped locos?