LGB sumpter/uintah soundboard now in place in Bachmann Annie and it works for £30!

[beavercreek]

As I have had a bit of a problem with inconsistent chuffs when using reed switches or the Bachmann Annie chuff trigger with the Uintah/Sumper mallet soundboards that I am putting in the Annie tenders, I am going to try hall effect sensors instead, as these are what LGB use for most of their in loco sound cards. I got the LGb soundboards pretty cheap from a German supplier on ebay and they work perfectly.

What I am not sure of are some of the specs that those hall sensors would have. The spec that I am pretty sure of are:
Operating voltage 3V to 24V
Output current 20mA
Current supply about 6mA
Open collector
Connections for GND, CLICK and +12V

BUT
should the sensor be bipolar or unipolar or other?
Latching or non latching?

The Massoth hall sensor replacement kit 8242030 only gives a few specs for the sensor and the kit comes with axle and magnetic ring which I don't need. I have sent an email to Massoth but just in case anyone has had to buy a replacement hall sensor on its own and knows the spec.........

 

[Gizzy]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

All I could find was....

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/23/aft/118616/Default

and

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/lgb_c_and_s_mogul.htm

If your knowledge of Dutch is better than my tourist knowledge, then you might find this document useful....

http://www.altek.nl/graphtips/Geluid in je loc 2 - magneten.pdf

All found by typing LGB hall sensors into Gooooogles....

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Hi Gizzy
Yes I already got those links when I used Google but unfortunately no insight as to the remaining specifications of the hall sensor that I need but the Dutch link gave same very funny phrases after Google translation, like this one:
"Note: the round hole in the crotch is very tight. According to the supplier that is intentionally
done, so you cross the force on the shaft to squeeze, and it immediately stuck. Self filling. I prefer something from the hole, then I do it with a little glue in the right place"......indeed ......

Thanks anyway mate.

 

[palmerston]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

1) the current Massoth kit is not suitable for LGB sound
2) the magnet is glued to the axle to keep a fixed distance to the sensor

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Thanks for the input 'palmerston' but I need to know two of the specs of the hall sensor that is used in LGB locos ie
bipolar or unipolar and whether latched or unlatched

 

[shropshire lad]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Just had a play a play with an Ls chip Mike. A single connection of the clock cable induces one chuff so you need a uni polar,non latchng hall sensor.
Just check you have three 'legs' on the sensor, positive, negative. and switch

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Cheers Colin,
you have filled in the remaining two bits of spec that I needed. I will now try hall effect sensors in place of the 'inconsistent' results with plain reed jobbies and also the unsuccessful result with the Annie's own chuff trigger. If the 'halls' work, I will be able to convert the four Bachmann Annies' sound to the LGB digital boards with integral capacitor back-up (sold as spares for sumpter/uintah mallets ) for a total of about 30 euro a pop and also learned quite a bit about LGB circuitry on route!

There are also spare soundboards from the German mallets available on Ebay if anyone wanted to add a half decent sound to a tender or following boxcar for another non-sound European loco in the same way that I am doing for the Annies. All this adding of a hall sensor might not even be necessary as it may already be there, or at least the axle swap waiting for the Massoth sensor kit.

Thanks to all the input lads, it is very much appreciated

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

I have obtained the hall sensors and set one up on a test bed tender bogie with a small rare earth magnet stuck upon the axle. It works much better than the reed switch did.....well yes...... and no. The single magnet gets one steadily repeating chuff per revolution..very good...
But one chuff per revolution is not very prototypical so I stuck another magnet at 180 degrees to the other magnet on the axle. This is much like the original configuration of the LGB axle

The hall sensor totally ignores the second magnet and still gives only one chuff per revolution.
I have reversed the magnets with every permutation possible for North or South polarity, replaced the magnets and replaced the hall sensor but it still only gives one chuff per revolution.

Is the board ignoring a second signal from the sensor? Is there an in built delay between sensor and board electronics so that two 'pulses' in quick succession are only treated as one?

I am not sure what is going on. The only thing that I can think of is that the miniature round rare earth magnets are too powerful and swamp the sensor not allowing it to 'reset' with no line of magnetic flux passing through it.

I have ordered a real LGB axle to delve into the magnet set up and also a LGB hall sensor cable and head to see how that is set up.

Any ideas would be good for the melting pot of wisdom.....

 

[ntpntpntp]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

...The only thing that I can think of is that the miniature round rare earth magnets are too powerful and swamp the sensor not allowing it to 'reset' with no line of magnetic flux passing through it.

Not something I've played with (other than the sensor on an Aristo sound tender), but that was my first thought on reading your post. I guess the way to prove that would be to take one of the magnets and just wave it around the sensor to see what sort of response you can provoke from different distances and frequency of passing over the sensor?

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

...The only thing that I can think of is that the miniature round rare earth magnets are too powerful and swamp the sensor not allowing it to 'reset' with no line of magnetic flux passing through it.

Not something I've played with (other than the sensor on an Aristo sound tender), but that was my first thought on reading your post. I guess the way to prove that would be to take one of the magnets and just wave it around the sensor to see what sort of response you can provoke from different distances and frequency of passing over the sensor?

Hi Nick
tried that and still no effect. I have now put 4 magnets onto the axle and then tried it on the back of a wheel and still just the 1 chuff no mater which way the wheel/axle revolves or distance from the sensor (until no chuff is made at all).........
Tis witchcraft I tell you.....

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

UPDATE
I rigged up a tender without the top with the sumpter/uintahsoundcard, speaker, hall sensor and power coming from the Annie loco (the plugs are already there). I used two magnets 180 degrees apart on the back of one wheel. I had to put two shims between the wheel and journal to keep it central. Made a housing for the hall sensor with wiring and stuck that onto the back of the bogie.
Hung the tender behind an Annie , applied the power and.....
Success.!!
It worked superbly and even without the cover, the improvement on sound as opposed to the original Bachmann unit was immense. Also there are the other sounds that come with the LGB sound card like brake squeal, whistle, bell etc. and not forgetting the back-up capacitors that come with the boards.
So cost-wise ? 35 average for the four cards, £1 for the hall sensor and magnets a new effective sound system emerged for about £30. Of course there was a lot of fiddling to find the correct way of rigging it up..oh and some darned good input from the lads on this forum and also Peter Ting's info from Massoth about the card itself.
Excellent ....now to rig up the other three tenders

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

*

 

[shropshire lad]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Glad you got this sorted Mike,I'm going to have a go at doing the same with my Feldbahn loc when I'm feeling brave enough to drill one of the wheels!!

 

[muns]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Any chance of some pics now that you have it working?

 

[beavercreek]

Re:Specification for the hall sensor used in LGB locos or in the Massoth 8242030 kit

Will get some sorted this weekend Mark. Got a bit on but will sort it

Edit...they are in the posts below

 

[beavercreek]

As requested, here are some piccies of the LGB Sumpter/uintah mallet sound board installation into the Bachmann Annie tenders.

Making the hall sensor device
I used some plastic 'U' channel fashioned from spare piece from a plastic building kit. The three wires for the hall sensor were slid into the channel and the hall sensor bent to show the flat face towards the magnets on the back of the wheel. There is a washer spacer on each end of the axle to keep the distance between the sensor and the wheel magnet as constant as possible. The wires were then passed through the hole where the original volume control was sited.
The whole lot was fixed in with hot glue and then stuck onto the back of the bogie making sure that the other wheel was not fouled by the wires and that the bogie could swing easily.

The original Bachmann sound card was removed (it is so much smaller than the one that will replace it!). Also the mounting pillars were removed to allow the new board to fit. I was going to replace the Bachmann speaker but it does the job with the new card well but an upgrade may happen in the future.
The wires for the LED rear light were spliced into and made ready for supplying the power for the new sound card.

Only one of the plugs is necessary (for supplying power to the sound board as well as the LED light. The other plug (the Bachmann chuff trigger) is redundant as the hall sensor is now the new chuff trigger.

The board is in place and positioned so that the volume control will be accessible through the water hatch. The board is fixed in place by using a plastic tie that passes through two new holes in the chassis and tied over the board.

The two guide tabs that are part of the top of the tender and hold the battery for the original sound system are removed to allow room for the new board under neath. The volume control knob is shortened and a slot made in the top (with a hot screwdriver blade). It is now accessed by lifting the water hatch (this is where the 9V battery used to go). The board can be seen through the hatch and that is where the two guides were removed.

The led rear light still works only when reversing and the power is supplied to the card whether forward or reverse power is used.
The chuff is very throaty and syncs well. I will add reed switch triggers for the bell and the whistle at a later date.

 

[beavercreek]

A picture showing the cable to the LED rear reversing light. This comes from the original cable and connection and also supplies the power for the new soundboard. The site of the removed battery lugs can be seen where the 9V sticker is on the underneath of the water hatch.

 

[trammayo]

What's the two white things on the cable ends Mike? They look a bit like Screwits (insulators for a pair of twisted wires).

 

[Zerogee]

Mike, where did you get your Hall Sensors? Rapid? I've been looking through their online store and can't seem to find that particular type.....
I'm thinking of adding one to the Dingler, as the axle magnets and little bit of PCB to solder the sensor to are already in place, would then just need three wires to the LS that I've fitted. I've found a photo on ebay (on the sale thread for another Dingler Ts3) that actually shows the sensor in place, and it LOOKS very much like the ones you are using here.

Jon.

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Mick
The two white things are screw connectors. you take the two or three bared wires, twist them together and then screw these on top. They keep the wires connected and allow you to easily disconnect later if wished. I like them for when I feel lazy and do not want to solder! I also use them as insulators as in the picture where the wires are to go to the capacitor back-up pack, which in this first case I had disconnected from the board when trying to find the best way to seat the board in the tender.

Hi Jon
I got the hall sensors from Conrad....http://www.conrad.com/Hall-IC-Infin...-V-PSSO-3-2.htm?websale7=conrad-int&pi=153802 < Link To http://www.conrad.com/Hal...nrad-int&pi=153802