Help choose the next Roundhouse loco

[palmerston]

Belgian/french loco.

As the Tallylyn is a well know railway their Tom Rolt is an obvoius choice for Roundhouse as the W&L and L&B are done by Accucraft UK.

Even Accucraft UK will get difficulties in chosing new models in the not to distant future.

 

[tagorton]

Belgian/french loco.

As the Tallylyn is a well know railway their Tom Rolt is an obvoius choice for Roundhouse as the W&L and L&B are done by Accucraft UK.

Even Accucraft UK will get difficulties in chosing new models in the not to distant future.

Doubt it ? in the foreseeable future anyway. The Accucraft road map already contains the L&B Manning Wardles, the Baldwin and of course, rolling stock to suit ? something that Roundhouse does not supply. The IoM locos (in both live steam and electric) will be available and again these have RTR rolling stock. I strongly suspect that after the L&B rollout Accucraft will look at further 1:20.3 prototypes on 45mm only. My bet is Irish locomotives ? again in both live steam and electric and again with RTR rolling stock. Tom Rolt should sell ? but given that the production models are not yet on the streets the jury is still out. Traders do not seem to have many orders but then perhaps people are 'waiting and seeing.' Accucraft UK have ideas in other areas not currently visited by Roundhouse as well, but I cannot comment about this at the moment. As I said, a different business model...


Like others on this group I would like to see more sophisticated versions of past and present models from the Roundhouse range. Improved bodyshells, hex head bolts, no whitemetal etc, etc. We will see. Roundhouse have not done a bad job over the years in judging the market, so things may well change... They are not daft in Yorkshire...

 

[andysleigh]

I think Roundhouse are in danger of becomming a victim of their own succuss in a limited market like LGB was:-

1. They have tied themselves too closely to the 16mm Assoc. and ignored the G and growing Fn3 markets.
2. Their locos are usually built to last and so there main competitor after Accucraft UK is the second hand market of their own products which had built up over the past 30 years which will become more and more an issue.

They therefore need to find alternative markets to enable them to keep growing without trying to do too much too quickly. It would seem with the low value of the £ that they are missing a trick not making more locos that appeal to the German and US markets.

But there companys already doing German stuff, and TBH they are probably doing to do them better detailed and cheaper than roundhouse,
its not really Roundhouses style, they are a 16mm scale model company, and thats how they started out, for 16mm, and 16mm in the main is British moddelling, and i think there would be a few displeased faces if they started doing more g scale style stuff.


they havnt ignored the g scale side completely, they included a very nice looking big slot on the buffer beams so g scale tension lock couplings can be fitted 8|

One problem is that they like to stick to the idea of using the same cylinders and valve gear for anything they do, perhaps if they broke out of that habit for a few locos, then they could do somthing a bit different.

Hmmmmn. The valve gear is different on quite a few locos Andy. Apart from the obvious one such as Carrie (which did not sell well) the Ffestiniog locos have different running gear to their satndard semi Walschaerts.

Yes, i know there are quite a few different valve gears roundhouse have done, but i think they prefer to stick to somthing they already have, i dont see them doing a model with say Allan valve gear, or joy.

 

[JoelB]

Any manufacturer has to balance the cost of producing goods versus the price that can be charged -- elementary market economics. Roundhouse cannot compete with cheaper Chinese labour, so they must economise by using common parts in as many models as possible, simplifying the construction process and not sweating the fine details. This goes hand in hand with their design philosophy of making robust engines that are easy to maintain. IMHO, any drastic change in direction away from those principles is a recipe for disaster.

That said, I do think that they could subtly change a few of their long-standing practices (those cheesehead screws, as we all agree) and incorporate some additional detail (scale rivet heads, f'rinstance) in cab sides, side tanks and the like. I think that the market could absorb the relatively small increase in price that these improvements would cost.

What new engine to produce? I've been prone in other fora to beat the drum for more generic prototypes. How come no manufacturer has produced a model of the quintessential British four- or six-coupled industrial loco? There were plenty of examples in both standard and a variety of narrow gauges. In that vein, what's wrong with mating Carrie's Hackworth valve gear with Bertie? Get rid of those rivets, make it less toylike. A good start, I would think.

My two cents' worth.

 

[Moonraker]

Tag points out that the live steam markets in America and Europe are pretty small but there is another active market....Australia. Roundhouse has two energetic distributors here, the "Rails in the Garden" group has about a hundred members and live steam/battery seems to be just as popular as track powered.

We also have a widely know prototype .....the Baldwin 2-6-2 NA class on Puffing Billy. It's 2' 6" gauge and RH could probably use some of the tooling they had for the L & B Baldwin some years ago.

Peter

 

[New Haven Neil]

Mmm Allen or Joy valvegear...not many UK prototypes with that......in outside format anyway, and if it's inside it doesn't show so there's no point.

Offhand, I can only think of Bellerophon, with outside Allen, or the odd O&K import, which takes us back to non UK prototypes. (edit - Cambrai??? still furrin made though!) Of course our Beyers have inside Allen..... doesn't show though, and it could be Stephenson to look at it.

The Puffing Billy 2-6-2's though...what a lovely loco, and their colonial look crosses both the Atlantic and the Pacific in my view. Inside valvegear too.....

How about Bagnall-Price.....as in, Sealion....

 

[Sea Lion]

Best thing with Bagnall Price valve gear is to give it plenty of oil, shut the cover and don't ask too many questions

Happy steamings,

John

 

[andysleigh]

Mmm Allen or Joy valvegear...not many UK prototypes with that......in outside format anyway, and if it's inside it doesn't show so there's no point.

Offhand, I can only think of Bellerophon, with outside Allen, or the odd O&K import, which takes us back to non UK prototypes. (edit - Cambrai??? still furrin made though!) Of course our Beyers have inside Allen..... doesn't show though, and it could be Stephenson to look at it.

The Puffing Billy 2-6-2's though...what a lovely loco, and their colonial look crosses both the Atlantic and the Pacific in my view. Inside valvegear too.....

How about Bagnall-Price.....as in, Sealion....

The l&B Mannin Wardles had outside joy valve gear, and Roundhouse did a model of the, tho with dummy joy gear, and inside slip eccentric.
I mean Allan if roundhouse were to do more continental engine.

 

[hornbeam]

well I think there is quite a lot they could do with the range they have got. Offer all locos with sight gauges at either point of purchase or as add ons to fit ya self, glass for the spectical rings, as said already use hez screws (please please please!), and offer a satin finish?

Maybe they could upgrade the basic range a bit? A nice saddle tank with bunker would be nice.

 

[hornbeam]

sorry about the spelling.

 

[palmerston]

glass for the spectical rings, as said already use hez screws (please please please!), and offer a satin finish?

Re: satin finish

Only the colored bits are in gloss, cab, watertank, bunker and bufferbeams. The rest is in satin.

The gloss finish is less sensitive to chipping of on the edges and scratches.

 

[New Haven Neil]

I think the idea that UK buyers would only want prototypes of British built locos a bit daft, a little predudiced and rather limiting although I could name many I woulkd wish to have if money was no object!

Sorry, I have to disagree on that one I'm afraid, Steve!

After more than 35 years in this hobby (bear in mind I also model American in HO, so do not consider myself prejudiced in the slightest) I find the average British enthusiast VERY insular, and precious little interested in anything from outside the shores of the British Isles. This does not include me, as I say, but my experience of clubs and exhibiting tells me so. Crikey, enough people won't look at anything without GWR (or insert the regions favourite) on the side!

It's not that I don't want more diverse models, I personally do, but I don't think Joe Soap enthusiast does.

Maybe ask Roundhouse how many Forneys they sold in the UK.....not that they would tell us, but it was hardly a big seller.

My HO Layout

 

[New Haven Neil]

Mmm Allen or Joy valvegear...not many UK prototypes with that......in outside format anyway, and if it's inside it doesn't show so there's no point.

Offhand, I can only think of Bellerophon, with outside Allen, or the odd O&K import, which takes us back to non UK prototypes. (edit - Cambrai??? still furrin made though!) Of course our Beyers have inside Allen..... doesn't show though, and it could be Stephenson to look at it.

The Puffing Billy 2-6-2's though...what a lovely loco, and their colonial look crosses both the Atlantic and the Pacific in my view. Inside valvegear too.....

How about Bagnall-Price.....as in, Sealion....

The l&B Mannin Wardles had outside joy valve gear, and Roundhouse did a model of the, tho with dummy joy gear, and inside slip eccentric.
I mean Allan if roundhouse were to do more continental engine.

Yup, spot on, the L&B's - I missed that one! Not many though, are there! The original VoR's did, I think, but it was between the wheels and the frames - eek! No wonder the replacements had outside Walschaerts!

 

[tagorton]

I think the idea that UK buyers would only want prototypes of British built locos a bit daft, a little predudiced and rather limiting although I could name many I woulkd wish to have if money was no object!

Sorry, I have to disagree on that one I'm afraid, Steve!

After more than 35 years in this hobby (bear in mind I also model American in HO, so do not consider myself prejudiced in the slightest) I find the average British enthusiast VERY insular, and precious little interested in anything from outside the shores of the British Isles. This does not include me, as I say, but my experience of clubs and exhibiting tells me so. Crikey, enough people won't look at anything without GWR (or insert the regions favourite) on the side!

It's not that I don't want more diverse models, I personally do, but I don't think Joe Soap enthusiast does.

Maybe ask Roundhouse how many Forneys they sold in the UK.....not that they would tell us, but it was hardly a big seller.

My HO Layout

Think that you are probably right here. If LGB had done something for the buyers on this side of the channel then it most certainly would have sold. I have seen quite a few LGB layouts purporting to be British railways... I do think there is a fondness for US prototypes however ? probably down to cowboy films and visits to Disneyworld .


Roundhouse have to find something that will sell in reasonable quantity ? they are a business after all ? and the UK is, for its size, a prime market for live steam. I do have to hold my own hand up in terms of garden railway insularity. I much prefer either UK prototypes or UK type generic locomotives. Don't really know why ? after all I spent 20-odd years roaming round the world and so am not insular generally speaking. I like IoM and Irish railways, but not so keen on Continental types. It is how it is for me and, from my experience (and probably that of Roundhouse, for a lot of others.

 

[andysleigh]

Mmm Allen or Joy valvegear...not many UK prototypes with that......in outside format anyway, and if it's inside it doesn't show so there's no point.

Offhand, I can only think of Bellerophon, with outside Allen, or the odd O&K import, which takes us back to non UK prototypes. (edit - Cambrai??? still furrin made though!) Of course our Beyers have inside Allen..... doesn't show though, and it could be Stephenson to look at it.

The Puffing Billy 2-6-2's though...what a lovely loco, and their colonial look crosses both the Atlantic and the Pacific in my view. Inside valvegear too.....

How about Bagnall-Price.....as in, Sealion....

The l&B Mannin Wardles had outside joy valve gear, and Roundhouse did a model of the, tho with dummy joy gear, and inside slip eccentric.
I mean Allan if roundhouse were to do more continental engine.

Yup, spot on, the L&B's - I missed that one! Not many though, are there! The original VoR's did, I think, but it was between the wheels and the frames - eek! No wonder the replacements had outside Walschaerts!

Didnt know that! always thought they had stevensons valve gear.
For all straight links, joy seems to be a difficult gear to set up, or so i hear..
it also reminds me that one of my suggestions to Roundhouse which was BLI BLI the fowler suger cane loco, has external joy, problem!

 

[minimans]

My personal opinion is if they want to expand they need to branch out of the narrow gauge only thing, as most people have noted if it ain't British outline it doesn't seem to sell as well. So Go for the smaller industrial Std gauge Loco's then if the demand is there into the gauge one mainline thing? Of course I think a Pannier tank is the ideal starting point!!!!!!!! theres lots of paint schemes that would apply to the type ooooooooo lets start with the LT livery???

I know I'm flogging a dead horse here...............................

 

[tagorton]

My personal opinion is if they want to expand they need to branch out of the narrow gauge only thing, as most people have noted if it ain't British outline it doesn't seem to sell as well. So Go for the smaller industrial Std gauge Loco's then if the demand is there into the gauge one mainline thing? Of course I think a Pannier tank is the ideal starting point!!!!!!!! theres lots of paint schemes that would apply to the type ooooooooo lets start with the LT livery???

I know I'm flogging a dead horse here...............................

Actually no Neil ? you are not ? the horse is fit and well. Roundhouse produced an 0-6-0 'concept' G1 tender freight locomotive, gas fired and radio controlled. The project AFAIK, is currently on the back-burner, partly because their G1 man left but also because they are keeping a close eye on what this market does. I suspect that it will come on stream when the first G1MRCo Accucraft built Mk 1's arrive in this country and a few more of their wagons. 600 squid for a coach does not play well with those who want to transfer to standard gauge ? particularly when a W&L coach is comfortably under 200 squid.

 

[New Haven Neil]

Errrr, wasn't me Tag, it was Paul!

I was aware that R/H had a G1 project hidden away, but had never heard a squeak about what it was! Rog is very secretive! It's a hard choice to know what to do for best in G1, as small everyday locomotives don't seem to appear very ofter, more the top link jobs. The G1 line I visit locally has an awful lot of big power! A goods 0-6-0 though, well, it won't often be seen hauling Mark 1's, depends what it is though I suppose. Thinking hat on...4F on the S&D? 2251? J39? Maude? Now there's wishful thinking, Dad was Scots!

Yes folks, I know about the Aster pannier, but it's no more a scale model than the oft maligned Roundhouse locos! A pannier would be a good starting point for Roundhouse then, despite my north-eastern heritage I rather like them, and the GW types love em! Another vote for LT livery then from me....or maybe NCB.....like, was it 7714? Then there's the issue of what scale to use for G1, I think Tag dealt with this recently in an editorial.....

Andy, on reflection it might have been Allen straight link on the VoR's! I need to get my book out and have a look-see. I'll have a look tonight, my curiosity is aroused! There was certainly a proposal to rebuild the original 2 with Walschaerts, but the GWR came along and built 3 new ones around the numberplates, and called them rebuilds for the bean-counters benefit. They were of course entirely new locomotives.

I'm rambling, sorry. Nurse!

 

[New Haven Neil]

Interesting post! I wasn't aware of the exact differences, nice explanation by the way!

I have a book (I think it's an old Worth Valley stockbook, I may be mistaken, and I'm at work) that refers to Bella as having Allen Straight Link, that's why I said so, but I'm quite happy to be corrected. I haven't seen her for years, since her first return to steam at Keighley to be exact.

So, being as you are obviously knowledgeable....(back to where we where, miles off topic as usual!!!) can you think of a UK prototype with outside Allen valvegear?

 

[New Haven Neil]

Yes, I see you over on NatPres..... presumed it must be the 'same' you!

That isn't the book I have, but that may well be where the incorrect information came from. Thinks - I need that book.......

Wandering miles off topic again....we visited Foxfield 2 years ago, on a non-running day (just passing by really) and I have to say it was the friendliest railway I have been to for years. Mrs NHN was much impressed too. Long may it be so!