Controlling switches...how?

JeffofSpace

JeffofSpace

Registered
Hi All,

I run dcc now and have done so for many years (albeit in nscale). The thing I like about it is that I can control so many other layout functions...most importantly switches/turnouts/points...go-this-way-or-that-ways.

My question for the rc guys...how are you doing this? Does everyone just do manual switches? A receiver (or “servo slot”) for each switch and a separate radio?

I am considering an rc setup for the huge luxury of not needing spotless rails. But this question vexes me.

Another brief thought on that...anyone running shorty lipos or even LiFe batts for small engines (I’m an avid rc car racer and we are always after the latest tech)...such as the classic Stainz? I would prefer not to run a tender with every little loco.

Kindly enlighten me.

Thank you!
 
Or do you mean for cars? We run 2-4 channel radios...depending upon electric or gas powered. The battery and speed controller and radio system are all the same infrastructure as the train units, from what I see. We run 7.6v lipos with somewhere between 5000-8000 Mah. I was considering simply setting up my own system in an engine or two using what I have already. Some of the car esc can handle 3s lipos...so upwards of 11-12volts.

Seems like the price point for entry into the train specific units is very steep.
 
nope, meant trains... there's solutions for most of your r/c systems, but they vary according to what you want. Also the number of switches you want to control, and your budget. I do it the most expensive way, with pneumatics controlled by solenoids controlled by DCC accessory decoders, but it is completely and seamlessly integrated into the controls I use for running trains. It's also the most reliable and weatherproof. No routine maintenance is necessary.

Basically you get what you pay for.

Greg
 
Hi Jeff
Several ways of doing this..
Pneumatics (on their own): - You need a compressor, 'plumbing' to points, air-motors, etc. Limits are it is not really a portable system.. You will need a number (perhaps) of locations where you can control the switches from.
DC electric: - You need power.. Wiring to switches, and back to control panel(s).
DCC electric: - As above, but integrated (or stand-alone) accessory decoders as well.
Wire in tube: - Very simple, though perhaps better for an elevated layout. - Again, where do you operate from?

All the above can be operated by RC, if you so wish..
I only know of two systems, and all require a fair amount of work on your part to interface the 'driving device' (servo?) with the switch itself.
You need local power. - For the receiver, servos / point-motors, any other interface electronics..
You need to make it as 'weather-proof' as your climate demands. - If humid, you may wish to turn the electrics off between running sessions, to avoid damp and current being a problem.

Here's a solution 'scenario' for you:
Controller end:
Shallow (inch-thick) box. Size of a A4 (or Letter) piece of paper.. This has a track-plan on it, with a toggle-switch for each point (switch). - Position of toggle shows how route is set. These connect to a suitable transmitter: seven channels, seven turnouts controlled.
Also in the 'box' is a gsecond transmitter: This gives control of your locomotive(s), dependent on RC system used.
Layout end:
A building (let's call it a Signal Box!), somewhere central to your layout/switches.. This has a Solar-panel on the roof, a charge controller, and a battery inside. It also house the receiver, and any other 'drive electronics' necessary. From this, a cable goes to each turnout, and connects to the 'motor' (could be a servo) which drives the blades.

Personally, I would have a switch to isolate the 'electronics' from the battery / solar when not running.

As this stands, there is no feedback to you, to say a turnout has actually gone over. - You could add a mechanical indication, or even colour-light signalling, if you so wished.

i could sell you the Tx module, switches, receiver, servo's to do this tomorrow.. The rest would be up to you. - I have looked at creating a more 'plug-and-play' solution, but the demand does not justify the return on the investment, unfortunately.
 
PhilP said:
Hi Jeff
Here's a solution 'scenario' for you:
Controller end:
Shallow (inch-thick) box. Size of a A4 (or Letter) piece of paper.. This has a track-plan on it, with a toggle-switch for each point (switch). - Position of toggle shows how route is set. These connect to a suitable transmitter: seven channels, seven turnouts controlled.
Also in the 'box' is a gsecond transmitter: This gives control of your locomotive(s), dependent on RC system used.
Layout end:
A building (let's call it a Signal Box!), somewhere central to your layout/switches.. This has a Solar-panel on the roof, a charge controller, and a battery inside. It also house the receiver, and any other 'drive electronics' necessary. From this, a cable goes to each turnout, and connects to the 'motor' (could be a servo) which drives the blades.

Personally, I would have a switch to isolate the 'electronics' from the battery / solar when not running.

As this stands, there is no feedback to you, to say a turnout has actually gone over. - You could add a mechanical indication, or even colour-light signalling, if you so wished.

i could sell you the Tx module, switches, receiver, servo's to do this tomorrow.. The rest would be up to you. - I have looked at creating a more 'plug-and-play' solution, but the demand does not justify the return on the investment, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Phil, I would be interested in something similar once I get the railroad laid out a bit. (Earliest: Next Spring). I'd definitely integrate feedback somehow, perhaps a color-changing LED? Red for direction x / green for direction y. I'm sure it'd cost a fair amount, but it actually sounds less intense than I'd expected.
 
Some excellent ideas and advice. I suppose my inclination would be to leave the dcc system for all the accessory functions. I could do a full rc system for a loco (or even 2) for somewhere around $100. That would include all of the channels I need for lights, etcetera on the loco.
Then I could just build a little box to hold both transmitters.

Obviously, this is not as clean as some of the above solutions...but I want my investing to go into trackage at this stage. We only have a 25’x10’ oval with a siding and a stub end so far.

Agreed, you get what you pay for and it is dangerous to go on the cheap. I am hunting for a middle ground for train control at the moment. Balancing nice performance (better than good) with cost.

Phil, is it acceptable within the rules for you to message me your site address (or search term to use)? I want to see if your components might be the match for me. As noted, I could go the cheap rc route...but I have a feeling your offerings are a better match for train control.

I doubt I need an 80amp rc car speed controller unless I’m modeling one of those NASA rocket sleds. Hey! That’s a great backyard project idea! Always next summer
 
"Hi Jeff
Several ways of doing this..
Pneumatics (on their own): - You need a compressor, 'plumbing' to points, air-motors, etc. Limits are it is not really a portable system.. You will need a number (perhaps) of locations where you can control the switches from.
DC electric: - You need power.. Wiring to switches, and back to control panel(s).
DCC electric: - As above, but integrated (or stand-alone) accessory decoders as well.
Wire in tube: - Very simple, though perhaps better for an elevated layout. - Again, where do you operate from? "

Well, saying pneumatics is not a portable system?
all you need is a single air supply, and some people even pressurize 2 liter soda bottles.
But not portable, but "wires in tubes" are more portable?

With pneumatics, all you need is a single air tube to the turnout motor, and the tubing is easily cut, joined, and can be left in the sun and does not corrode.

I run the tubing back to a central location, which can be manual air toggle switches, or something more sophisticated like solenoids.

It's more expensive, but some of the easiest stuff to change, changing lines is easy, you use barbed fittings to splice, "tees" etc, and easy to do without a soldering iron, and weatherproofing the connection.

Also, there are "3 way" toggle switches that allow you to control the same switch from 2 different locations.

Easy, powerful, low maintenance, but can be more cost that electric turnout motors. My priorities were the lowest maintenance.

Greg
 
A very valid point has been made - it depends on the prevailing climate/location of your line as to how best you activate your switches. My line is predominantly in shade/semi-shade and as a result can retain a lot of dampness throughout the day. This proved problematic, over time, with what would normally be considered a reliable LGB electric point motors and Cest Train Engineer combo left out year round.

Ended up ripping it all out and going the pneumatic route, as has also been suggested by Greg. It's proved reliable and problem free and I've even tied in my semaphore signals using the same actuators "teed" in to the switch circuits. I like the way I can operate multiple switches from one toggle switch to set regularly used paths on the line. Cost wise the manual system I have does not come out much more than the electric ones I used to have per switch.

Mine was supplied by Sunset Valley Railroad, who have a UK based agent. I noted that the base components in their system are provided by the "generic" pneumatics manufacturer Clippan. Max
 
This may help.
Simple Servo Controller
I have one I'm using for experimentation and it seems to work OK, the biggest issue may be the length of the run between the controller and the servo.
The controllers are dirt cheap from Hobbyking and so are their batteries.
I'm looking at making a panel and mounting them on it. The panel will have a line drawing of the layout showing the switch position.
 
you still have to deal with waterproofing the servo, and wiring... I'd use the Tam Valley servo controls, which have settable limits... that controller is intended to test servos.... (i have a few of them too)... I use the Tam Valley servo controllers on my Z scale layout, and they have options for relays to power point rails/frogs... they come with LED outputs.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
you still have to deal with waterproofing the servo, and wiring... I'd use the Tam Valley servo controls, which have settable limits... that controller is intended to test servos.... (i have a few of them too)... I use the Tam Valley servo controllers on my Z scale layout, and they have options for relays to power point rails/frogs... they come with LED outputs.

Greg
Click to expand...

The tester/battery drives the servo, the resistor controls the amount of travel from what I read and saw in the video. A bit of experimentation adds to the enjoyment and being able to skite "I built that". That is why I like Dave's site it is loaded with all sorts of possibilities.

As for waterproofing the servo it could just be mounted in a waterproof plastic container from a $2 shop with a wire/arm protruding to do the movement transfer, there would be heaps of possibilities to weatherproof the opening,
Push rod linkage boots for example sealed with silastic.
5PCS 32mm/42mm/60mm Waterproof Organ Sleeve Linkage Pushrod Boots Rubber Flex rod Boots for RC Boats Connecting Parts-in Parts & Accessories from Toys & Hobbies on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

Wiring can be any sheathed multi core wire and run in a conduit of poly irrigation pipe perhaps.

Of course I am only talking keeping rain out the only snow I see in in the freezer. ;) ;)
 
JeffofSpace said:
Hi All,

I run dcc now and have done so for many years (albeit in nscale). The thing I like about it is that I can control so many other layout functions...most importantly switches/turnouts/points...go-this-way-or-that-ways.

My question for the rc guys...how are you doing this? Does everyone just do manual switches? A receiver (or “servo slot”) for each switch and a separate radio?

I am considering an rc setup for the huge luxury of not needing spotless rails. But this question vexes me.

Another brief thought on that...anyone running shorty lipos or even LiFe batts for small engines (I’m an avid rc car racer and we are always after the latest tech)...such as the classic Stainz? I would prefer not to run a tender with every little loco.

Kindly enlighten me.

Thank you!
Click to expand...
Hey,
Thanks for the post. I live in the Philippines and moved to RC 3 years ago. No regrets. I use Deltang receivers and single transmitter capable of independent, simultaneous control of up to 12 loco. All from RC Trains.
The track tends to get dirty very quickly here and needed cleaning daily. I got fed up with this and moved to battery and RC. Power has been LiIon or LiPo. I prefer LiPo as I can use the same batteries in my RC cars.
As for control of devices. I am looking into this also. I want to use wire-in-tube to operate points manually. Electrics core so easily. However if you look at the RC Trains blog you will find an interesting way to have radio controlled points. If you are good with electrics or keen to face the challenge, this could be good.
Back to batteries. My one large loco has a 4S LiPo on board. The others have wagons to hold the batteries. I did not like the idea of towing the power supply but I find it OK. I have adopted a couple of wagons from Houston Gate for this purpose and a regular LGB closed wagon.
I hope this gas helped. RC is definitely recommended.
Cheers,
Tim
 
There's a lot to that thread, 16 pages... As I stated, I use the same Tam Valley servo drivers, with all the adjustments possible, they work OK, but servos tend to drift/wear or something and need recalibration.

My take is that the system is not rugged or reliable enough to be used outside with varying conditions without a fair amount of maintenance. I started using the servo drivers before Cliff (which you will see if you read the whole thread), and there is a fine line between detecting the force of the end of travel and detecting some extra resistance that is misinterpreted as the physical limit desired.

The small "tester" above is intended for people setting up servos to see the limits of the servo, not to be part of a remote control. I used them to find the "center" position of the servo travel once installed, the Tam Valley system does not have a command to "go to center".

In any case, that was an extensive investigation by a smart guy, and printing custom parts. I still have my pneumatic system, and working fine. Again cost was not the issue, but reliable, positive motion.

I do have a web page on this for anyone considering it: Air Operated Switches

Greg
 
For short distances, and to use to replace having to bend over to throw points (Switches), "Choke Cables" are a handy alternative. We use them a lot, on the IPP&W, here in Ottawa.
Fred Mills
 
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