USA Trains Deleted Locos

Luckily he is going after a smaller, but probably more lucrative market. Many people scratch build rolling stock, but not locomotives.

Kader is no friend to the small manufacturer, many train companies in many scales were hit.

But, clearly they aren't the only company who can make trains.

Greg
 
Can you imagine one of those monsters in 1.22.5 scale (LGB-Aster or Kiss)..... or even 1:20.3!!!!......... I have just given myself a hernia by only thinking of lifting it..
 
beavercreek said:
Can you imagine one of those monsters in 1.22.5 scale (LGB-Aster or Kiss)..... or even 1:20.3!!!!......... I have just given myself a hernia by only thinking of lifting it..
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1:22.5 ! That'll be G3/64 mm gauge then. Better get on to the Adamsons at GRS, their fiefdom I believe. I can just see the £££££ signs light up in their eyes at the thought. If LGB made it there would be one hell of a physics busting bendy rubber ruler involved. And think about the articulation required to get it through all that R 1 stuff :D Max
 
chris m01 said:
I’m sure I saw a while back that USAT had to change factories in China. This will have prevented any new batches of diesels being built. I think the transfer was largely successful but some tooling for the SD40 was lost. New batches of the current aluminium coaches have been produced since the move but I don’t know about any diesels yet.

Unfortunately the market for these locos appears to have shrunk. Certainly supply has seriously reduced over recent years. I’m pleased to see that Charles Ro is still able to produce new models even if they are way out of my price league. I hope this new loco will be a success.
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I'm looking forward to seeing one side-by-side with the Aster model. Seeing the two Big Boys together was a real education, that's sure. That 3% in scale is a heck of a difference.

I, too, wish them bonne chance with it. It's got an MRSP of around $3700 back in the USA, which is still a heck of a lot of change for most people, but what a beauty! In 'Lark' grey, hauling the twenty-one car 'Portland Rose' train, it would make a wondrous sight on any track big enough to accommodate it.

Here she is on a recent run to Cheyenne, alma mater of the Big boys -


This is fellow Gauge 1-er Peter Comley's track and his version of the much-loved train - 1 x Aster live steam FEF in Lark scheme - 2 x UP Armour yellow canteen cars and 21 Accucraft passenger/baggage/diner/sleeper/coach cars makes up the 'Portland Rose' train between Los Angeles and Portand Oregon. Now that #844 is back in service after a three-year rebuild, there are still rumours buzzing around comes that we'll see it again - what a sight that will be!


tac
OVGRS
 
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maxi-model said:
1:22.5 ! That'll be G3/64 mm gauge then. Better get on to the Adamsons at GRS, their fiefdom I believe. I can just see the £££££ signs light up in their eyes at the thought. If LGB made it there would be one hell of a physics busting bendy rubber ruler involved. And think about the articulation required to get it through all that R 1 stuff :D Max
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
According to Greg sales are buoyant.

I have to say that I saw no evidence of this in Oregon last year, talking to two fairly big players in the model train world.

I'll be focusing principally on live steam for the foreseeable future, and will certainly be 'moving on' a few of my bigger 1/29th diesels now that all their rolling stock has gone. Even my Aster/LGB White Pass Mikado might be in the sales forum [again].

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
POCRR - Eastern Sub
 
Uhh..... according to Greg, he said EXACTLY what he posted, and never used any word implying a specific gravity less than water!

I said 1:29 outsells 1:32 ....

Also, no offense, Oregon is not known as a hotbed of modelers, most of the money is in the states with higher incomes, and that definitely is not Oregon!

The Eastern US is apparently where there's more model railroaders, even if they don't all have the expanses of land found in other states, after all the subject was about building and buying diesels, not who has the largest garden railroad.

I live in the USA 365 days a year, a few vacations and "information snapshots" in Oregon is definitely not a nationwide sampling of the hobby.

The history is that Aristo, USAT and AML have wildly outsold 1:32, and if you spent any time looking at the US ebay, you would see there's again more 1:29 for sale in large scale than any other scale (other than possibly old Bachmann big haulers ha ha)

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
I live in the USA 365 days a year, a few vacations and "information snapshots" in Oregon is definitely not a nationwide sampling of the hobby.
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I never implied that it was 'a nationwide sampling' and I take issue with your belittling comment about 'information snapshots'. Posts from the US and Canadian members here might all be construed as 'information snapshots'.

I'm done in this thread.

tac
 
tac foley said:
According to Greg sales are buoyant.

I have to say that I saw no evidence of this in Oregon last year, talking to two fairly big players in the model train world.

I'll be focusing principally on live steam for the foreseeable future, and will certainly be 'moving on' a few of my bigger 1/29th diesels now that all their rolling stock has gone. Even my Aster/LGB White Pass Mikado might be in the sales forum [again].

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
POCRR - Eastern Sub
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GRS currently has 6 new USAT locos, 2coaches and over 70 wagons in stock and on sale.
Charles Ro has over 90 different diesel locos in stock and pages and pages of coaches. There is plenty of stock available and more will be made when this runs out.
 
I had a talk with a friend last night, who talked to both Charles Ro senior and junior. The issue for them besides the shrinking market has really been the forced change in manufacturing by the issues with Kader.

Apparently (from the many people I have talked to who are indeed manufacturers / customers of Kader) Kader is pretty much at capacity. For example, even though they bought their competitor Sanda Kan some time ago, after the sale, they basically shrunk the total company down, laid of a number of people, and "cherry picked" (I hope that phrase translates) their customer base.

Many companies suffered besides Aristo, USAT, Micro Trains (I'm in Z scale too)...

I believe we are still suffering this move and control.

In any case USAT is working to come out with more product, and of course the new loco will be a sellout... I also am pretty sure the new heavyweights will also be a big success, I'm going to sell all my 72' aristos for the 80' USAT, and that will be at least 10 cars.

In any case, there is still product to be purchased, more to be made, and of all the scales in DC powered locos, 1:29 still appears to be healthiest especially with Bachmann talking about no more 1:20.3 locos... (which is very unfortunate).... realize Bachmann has lots of product in different scales, USAT only 1:29... (except the older 1:24 line).

Sorry TAC, you and I butt heads on a semi-regular basis, but we need more information that an occasional trip to Oregon, and all of us that have been in the hobby realize that what is on the forums is a VERY SMALL part of the total modeler population. The forums are only one "window" to what is going on, not the total story.

Regards, Greg
 
I have heard that USA did not "lose" the molds to Kader, but that they had leased them from Kader. When the lease was up, they did not renew based on slow sales and age of Mr. Ro. Of course, I do not have confirmation of this but the person seemed very knowledgeable about the industry. (Though that doesn't mean they know everything.)

Since Kader owns Bachmann (this is confirmed)... I would guess all of the USA tooling that is still around will eventually end up under the Bachmann name? That could leave us all with only 3 or so options of who to buy from in the future!
The question is really what Kader (a massive Chinese toy company) will allow Bachmann to have produced.
 
1to3 said:
I have heard that USA did not "lose" the molds to Kader, but that they had leased them from Kader. When the lease was up, they did not renew based on slow sales and age of Mr. Ro. Of course, I do not have confirmation of this but the person seemed very knowledgeable about the industry. (Though that doesn't mean they know everything.)

Since Kader owns Bachmann (this is confirmed)... I would guess all of the USA tooling that is still around will eventually end up under the Bachmann name? That could leave us all with only 3 or so options of who to buy from in the future!
The question is really what Kader (a massive Chinese toy company) will allow Bachmann to have produced.
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I think that you may be confusing USA Trains with Aristocraft...
 
I agree with Mike. Aristocraft either didn't own the tools or owed so much to Kadar that they kept the tools when Aristocraft ceased trading. A new batch of streamlined coaches were made last year which suggests the tooling has bene successfully transferred to another manufacturer.
 
So the story, confirmed by several large dealers in the know, from back in the heyday, is that Aristo did not own ANY of the molds (mind you the track was not made at the Kader-owned factories). So yes, you might see "Aristo" stuff sold again under other names, not only Bachmann.

Apparently, USAT was in a similar situation, but in my experience, Charles and Charlie Ro were much better at controlling their destiny, note well the superior assembly quality of USAT vs. Aristo locos all made from the same factory.

I would not be surprised if USAT somehow managed to get some of it's molds back.

Notice that LGB had similar problems, and got some of the molds "out of China", not all, but some.

Greg
 
beavercreek said:
I think that you may be confusing USA Trains with Aristocraft...
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Possible the person I was talking to was incorrect... but I have his story accurate. (If that matters.) He was specifically talking about SD 40 which I believe only USAT had.

I do not believe this is a false story from what I have seen, but who knows. Either way it appears there will be fewer manufacturers of locos in the future.
 
1to3, I went back and re-read your post and I cannot argue with any point you have made. I definitely do not have specific information on the SD40... but that was not such a popular loco, the most popular were the F3 and the GP7, I know that for sure, a while back USAT published statistics somewhere... The SD70 was a good seller, but many purchased and would not run on the curves people had.

I would likewise agree that the molds are indeed not lost. If someone came to Kader with a large enough order at the right price they will make it, but the minimum production runs used to be 500 and sometimes 250 and I have been told that has doubled. Also prices have gone up. They hold all the marbles.

On the new steam loco, they sold every one of their Hudsons, and made 2 runs, and I believe the Big Boy was sold out and had a second run also.

Back in the day, if you talked to Lewis Polk, and then talked to Charlie Ro, you saw a world of difference in their approach to the market and a realistic view of what would sell.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Notice that LGB had similar problems, and got some of the molds "out of China", not all, but some.
Greg
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I would be interested to know what tooling from each brand is still around. Really hoping for some new paint schemes, but who knows if that is even possible anymore?
 
Word is that Bachmann have all the Aristo tooling. Evidence supports this ad they have already made the Eggliner and spare power bogies for the bo bo locos. The ownership of the tools could have been transferred in lieu of payment of monies owed.

I have seen two reports regarding USA Trains. One report says the moulds have all been moved but some of the SD40 tools went missing in transit. That kind of fits with the SD40 disappearing from the website. The other report says they are all still with Kadar while ownership/transfer negotiations take place. The only hard evidence we have is that there has been a recent, almost certainly post Kadar, run of streamlined coaches.

There is of course this unique to China thing that says the customer pays for the tooling but it is the property of the factory. In the Western world, if you pay for the tooling then you own it and can do what you want with it.
I don’t see how you can pay out say £100k to have something made especially for you and then own nothing.
 
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