Track making/making tracks: the good, the bad and the ugly, advice and thoughts wanted, explanation is giving(incl mistakes)

[justme igor]

It crossed my mind, it does not have be neccercerly pvc, pvc for a hobbyist is not duable either. Hdpe would be a far better choice, it is easier to work with and the poisines gasses are less dangerous, working temps are lower also, from my point of view and capabilities
It is al in the profile and some pressure with heating up and cooling down. You can make it continuous.
Even hobby/money wise.
Before you will have a good end result you have gained and overcome a lot of trouble, thus work and learning.
The "moldsmouth" is the easiest part to make, incl the cutting tool for the sleepers/ties, for me that is.
There are people with different professions/hobby's here that will have no trouble with one other parts/sections of the production line.

For injection molds it would be clever to gather ten people that want to have some serious trackwork, a injection mold is not cheap, but can earn itself very quick back.

Casting plastic it can be done, but i dont think someone will succeed hobby wise.
You must have a commercial instinct for sale, i think.

Madman
Just 50 years I am doing it for just 30 years...oke couple of months from now.

Here's my thought. The exotic hardwoods like IPE', and the other's you mentioned are excellent for structures like decks which are exposed to the elements. But when you mill them down to the sizes we need to build track and small items, even these woods loose their ability to withstand the kind of weather you experience in your country.

Exactly my thought.
But it is for free and it will take a day of production work in the shed, for 50 or 100 meters or so, so i would not mind if it will end up in the woodstove in 5 or 6 years.
I think 10 years especially after impregnating with wood stain.
Same with paint: moister can get easy in, but not easy out.(5 years tops would be my guess)

Fresh steel has the problem it is going to rust, in how many years i dont have a clue.
If i would slot the ties/sleepers and wedge the steel into, the rust is going to expand and could break the ties/sleepers?
With a saw blade that is thicker than the steel and glue it to getter with polymax or something so there would be room for that expansion?
How long it will hold, again i have no clue.

Thanks for thinking along! it is really appreciated.

 

[Paul M]

If you mix woods and wood and plastic, would the expansion/contraction be acceptable, if you're glueing the pieces together

 

[Greg Elmassian]

There are many people using the steel strap in wood ties, and rust is a big issue, and a little expansion locks it into the ties. As I have said there are many people who have done this for years as proof.

If you are concerned about a little rust on the surface, you can put a little light oil on the surface. The rust will give a lot of extra traction, and the light oiling will not cause issues.

Not trying to change your mind, but this method has been proven over the years in many climates.

Greg

 

[justme igor]

For eye site beyond 2 meters/7 yards or foot and for hidden:
I completed the experiment with wooden ties with alu rails(alu strip 2mmx10mm), i must say honest: i trust this one much better, especially for in the curves.
Instead of full wood and even with decent glue.
However: i bought pvac d4 hardwood glue, (the d4 was/I needed anway) for the total wood railway/track experiment.
With d2 pvac......no way: to weak, even when the wood has is optimum RH.....Nope...... (pressure ect, for the pros carpenters amongst us)
For parking inside: slots into wood.
For inside view: below 2 meters/7 yards or foot, i think i want to buy track or 3d print decent track......?
But 3d print.....it can look really good but it takes so much time.....so MUCH...
Tomorrow the kit?(I dont know the proper translation sorry, thick glue maybe? comes in tubes) has set and i will post a update, incl the other options, one more experiment to go?
Steel strap!!!!
Stupid...For my hunt for raw materials i found out that 3x10mm alu is cheaper than steal 3x10mm......go figure...
If i sell 1kg to a scrapyard dealer alu(low quality) i get 1 euro 40...
If i sell 1kg to a scrapyard dealer iron(high quality/heavy iron) i get 22 cents.
My hunch for a answer is simple,,,it costs more to (re) melt iron than alu....?1500c and 750c for alu.

I live very close to tata steel, what are you paying for alu or iron bar/strips in 2x10mm? in dollars or preferably euro.
I am just curious, incl your country/state/governor as well please.

Sorry no imperial conversions for now, thanks to "hertog Jan"
With best regards and thanks for you answers! thoughts, ideas, comments, everything related to this subject(railway track!!!)...ALL is taking into consideration, even when you think it is a stupid thought...we have light AND phone due to a stupid thought!
Best

 

[korm kormsen]

...
Tomorrow the kit?(I dont know the proper translation sorry, thick glue maybe? ...

if you mean, what in German would be "Kitt" (for windows or holes in wood) the English word would be "putty" as far, as i know.

 

[MickyF]

Good evening you all,(my local time)

For my garden railway i would like to have track, just track a lot of track and just some more track.....and dont forget to put some tracks into that corner....
But,,,yes there is always a but.
There are going to be pieces of track you will not see, unless you will take a look at it.
Like my plan to put 150 meters (probably double or triple track) of track along side of the canal behind the hedge....perfect ride with camera and time lapse and surprise for the big steamers i would like to have in the near future.
Yes i wont forget maintenance about the hedge
in general you wont see fine details on 3 meters 9 foot 9 yards distance? right?
I tried to 3d print some track in abs and pla with good succes(heck...you can even 3d print a automatic rc controlled coupler...not kidding.ect), but even with a 3d printer i can do max 1.5 meters a day.
Now i am pretty handy with wood and i had a thought that i will experiment on next week.

Type of wood:
Now before you al lose your minds, i am planning to use hard wood, think about palisander bankiray and such...meranti is a collection name for hard and tropical woods, i am referring to the real hard, dark and heavy woods.
Mainly i can get it for free and i have the machinery for it.
Of Course i can profile it but i wont.
The sleepers would be 1 cm in width x 9 cm in length and 4mm in height.
(sorry i am not a imperial bastard(star wars joke)don't get offended! please!)
The rail would be 6mm high and 4mm in width.
I am planning to glue it together with pvac d4 glue(hardwood and outside water contact)
If i have to redo tracks in 5 to 10 years from start use, i would be oke with that.(i think 15 to 20 years, but oke to keep it on the safe side)
I am not afraid of (working)rapping shrinking expanding or such, this wood is to old to do that and hardwood is not the type when harvested right or aged to do all those things.
Soft wood can do the (working) expansion and wrapping even at 100 years of age....look at oak wood wine barrels for a simple example.
Granted: oak will harden over time and thus deliver more quality wood, but oak will keep on working even AFTER 400 years....just telling some experience..

The main environmental culture we face that we have in the Netherlands is 6 months wet 6 month dry, its hard wood
What are your thought on this...positive and negative thought are all appreciated on all specific point i would like to see your thoughts...on everything...... pos and neg..on every bit, please, a penny for your thoughts.....
Thought on wear, weather, glue, durability, live steam ect, what ever
The pressure test was simple, i stand on it with 81 kilos in between of the sleepers.(1 cm apart in between sleepers..they did not even feel it.)
Any cross section diameters drawings would be nice or helpfull, in turns/corners i know it must be at tad wide...... r1 to r5? i am planning a minimum of r3 inside garden track and r5 minimum for the outside garden track
If i have it correct: r3 is 1.5 meters and r5 is minimum 2.5 meters radius?????....
What would be that ....tad wider...???????
Any thought is welcome......I think for straight track between heads it is 45mm and not 43,5 mm, scale 1 to 32 or scale 1 to 29 or such????
Thanks in advance for every replay, with best regards Igor

Wow! I don't know where to start except to say that I have great experience using wood and would never have considered it for rails! For your interest I've made all my straight sections of railway using plastic ABS strips 3 metres long 10mm x 3mm (obtained from a plastics manufacturer we use at work - 75 lengths for £30). The rail strips are placed in slots 5mm deep in hardwood (beech) sleepers that are 80mm long x 20mm wide and have a height of 15mm. they are spaced at 100mm. Not realistic but most of the track is hidden. The plastic rails are secured with stainless pins that are used for nailing plastic cladding (cheap as chips). The plastic will expand so every 3 metres there is a 3mm gap. Of course my trains will be RC. The track has been down for 12 months now and is fine. The curves (R1 and causing me rolling stock problems!) are all plastic and probably will not outlast my home made rails! I did cover it up during the winter. I'm on a tight budget here!

 

[justme igor]

I think the last experiment worked out not bad.
To sum it al up:
Whole track made out of hard pvc sheet, its a joke.
Whole track made out of foam pvc sheet, it is better but a joke.
3d printed track, take a whole day to finish a 4.6 foot of track (4 euro 55), gets soft in the full sun, even after curing. 3 euro 60 for 3.3 foot complete.
Hardwood it is free but will deteriorate quick 5 to ten years, depending on where it is in the garden and the glue (area is to small)is to weak, takes some time to make, easy to break.
Aluminium track and wooden ties/sleepers looks very nice, but it is wood, certainly embedded in cement it will deteriorate quick, 1 euro 60 if bought alu strips in small quantities. in large quantities: 1 euro 20 or go big: 1 euro. for 3.3 foot track complete.
Aluminium strip with foam pvc sheet, add 1 euro 40 per 3.3 foot compleet(~37 sleepers/ties)
Both alu tracks where done with putty(polymax), that was suitable for alu plastics and wood.
"Stress" test: very hard to break or deform with twisting or bending.

The same applies for steel wrap(cheaper than alu strip), it is to thin 0.5mm you need to put minium 3 layers against each other to get one side of track 1.5mm thick, preferably 4 or 6.
Minimum available height 13 mm, it tried to bend steel wrap 19mm and 23mm in height, bend it in length wise, to obtain ~10mm x 3 mm, but it broke.




This is with wooden sleeper to try it out, saw dust is for the show.
For embedding i am going to experiment with cement and fine grid 1 mm to 3 mm and 3 mm to 5 mm



The foam pvc sheet i have is white, i just put them in black paint, let them drip something off, to explain the mess on the paper.
Thinking about buying dark brown?
The thinnest saw blade i have is a old 2.8 mm thick blade and is labeled as a c grade = for firewood and junk and was used to cut those sleepers/ties.
The other blades are thicker.
Time to buy a other new and sharp saw blade, a thin one: 2.2mm cutting width.
At the other hand, those "bites" on the side of the sleepers?

As always: thought, comment and ideas are welcome and very appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

 

[justme igor]

M MickyF
Abs crossed my mind, but like the other plastics i am afraid it will getting soft in the sun.
And isn't this what we all trying to do, benefit the most of our secundaria work conditions.
With beech i would use wood stain to give it that year extra.
If i where you i would put 2 more sleeper in between, it will give it more strength in the curves also?
For expansion...with alu, it crossed my mind, but indeed it must be considered also.
Thanks.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Reading carefully, there is a new requirement? Embedding your ties in concrete? Why?

 

[justme igor]

Embedding your ties in concrete? Why?

Probably i will work on some sceneries, this million dollar forum hold to much good ideas...For a scenery or two, maybe

 

[PhilP]

If you are going to set track in concrete.. Perhaps across a path, of driveway??

Then for that section only, LGB (or other commercial product) Code 332 with plastic sleepers, is the way to go.. - You could get away with steel strip rails welded the ties (probably at a greater spacing, in concrete) but I would not expect anything else to be anywhere near as durable.

If it is just 'scenic'. - A scale road crossing the track, say. A weak 'Rowlands mix' (less peat, or substitute) would be adequate, and would chip-out with an old screwdriver, if needed..

PhilP.

 

[Michael]

I've been running a live steam train for 9 years on Peco G45 track. I wouldn't feel comfortable running it on your attempts so far . Live steam locos are expensive and heavy and on a long track like yours would look great pulling a long line of coaches. Sooner rather than later (expecially for the all wooden one) your track will fail and you will end up with an expensive mess.
I would suggest you take a look at this site which sells all the components for making your own track. You might pick up some ideas. Notice they don't sell wooden or aluminium rail but recommend stainless steel rather than brass or nickel silver.

Cliff Barker - Home

 

[justme igor]

PhilP
On the sections where the railway is going to cross the path, i will grind the slap, take a piece out to fit in a length of track and that will be in concrete.
When the railway is not in use there will be some wooden protection to cover the tracks.
Indeed a "Rowlands mix" is what i would like to achieve in some small scenery.
The pebbles are going to be well represented, i think 1 part cement and two (3) parts pebbles, but this is for the future.
But indeed it must be week enough to poke it with a small chichel/screwdriver in the event if i want to relay tracks.
Above all, i have the feeling it looks better when in site(plus 2 meters), i still must do some research/investigation on real life tracks in various countries for area 1, 2 and 3, depending on that specific scenery and what i want.
At this point i am not even close to building/laying tracks.
For sceneries it would be another topic.

As mentioned before by Greg, traction is also something to consider, aldo aluminium is higher in friction than brass.?
Probably nothing more than that a 60, 80 or 100 grit sandpaper can cure that problem.
I also must try/figure out how to make a turnout/switch before i proceed. Connectors ect
But i think up to know this is pretty good looking, sturdy/strong, long lasting, easy/quick to build and cheap rails, for 2 meters out of site and beyond to hidden tracks.
I don't think i am there yet.....close but not yet.

 

[justme igor]

@ michael,
I was not comfortable either with my first attempts, especially for live steamers, the idea that one could go for a swim in the canal.....yikes.
Or drop on a rock....Those things are indeed price if you want to have something nice....up to 10.000!$
But you have to start somewhere? from pvc to wood to 3d printed to alu rails with wood to....alu rails with pvc sleepers.
It was sum up in some posts ago, incl pictures , no wood or plastic or 3d printed or any combination with wood, those wont happen, dont worry
Now I made my ties from pvc with 5mm deeb slots and 2.8 mm wide, where i fit in the alu strip in (10mm high.)
The slots are going to be narrower: 2.2mm for more stability, it will be glued together with putty, fit for this particular job, Polymax high tax.
People here are very helpful.
I will take a good look at their site.

Thanks.

 

[justme igor]

I tried several combinations of materials, putty and glue.(more types than shown in the picture)
Weather so far: hot dry and wet.
D2 and d4 pvac are failing on the way i did it.
Thanks for ALL the warnings.
I have very good results with alu strip, foam pvc sheet and polymax high tack.
Very strong bond, very hard to take apart, you break the ties or bend the strip before it will come apart.
It can take some real abuse.
Lets see what it does in the wheater, full sun, rain (so far so good)and even going to freeze it.


The wooden track was with d4 pvac, after a couple of days the joints give up.(above)
With the d2 pvac (pic below), it is a joke outside.....:


Thanks.

 

[dunnyrail]

I tried several combinations of materials, putty and glue.(more types than shown in the picture)
Weather so far: hot dry and wet.
D2 and d4 pvac are failing on the way i did it.
Thanks for ALL the warnings.
I have very good results with alu strip, foam pvc sheet and polymax high tack.
Very strong bond, very hard to take apart, you break the ties or bend the strip before it will come apart.
It can take some real abuse.
Lets see what it does in the wheater, full sun, rain (so far so good)and even going to freeze it.

View attachment 265540View attachment 265539View attachment 265542
The wooden track was with d4 pvac, after a couple of days the joints give up.(above)
With the d2 pvac (pic below), it is a joke outside.....:
View attachment 265541

Thanks.

They have a place in Austria that freezes complete Trains, you could send it to them to do for you.

 

[justme igor]

No need for sending them, my freezer in the cooler is cold enough, -7
And if i want to go extremer i will simple put them in my big freezer, -34
I rather make a big fool out of myself now, then when i finished 1500 yards.
Aldo i am very acquainted with those materials, they react different in this setup/purpose.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yes, on traction, nothing can beat oxidized aluminum for traction. Oxidized brass has pretty good traction, but remember aluminum oxide is what is used as sandpaper!

The worst for traction is what I have, stainless steel, very smooth and slippery, so I must run many locos:

 

[FatherMcD]

I can see why you wanted to replace the double s-curve. The track looks nice on its own following the patio edging, but the rolling stock looks like it's being thrown around a bit as is follows the rails.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yes, literally thrown around! Just finished cutting and matching track, 5 locations with moving the switch. Much nicer, tomorrow will try the 12 car train, but I have 2 aristo heavyweights coupled to the USA Trains heavyweights and the couplers are way off...

Much smoother and nicer now, and a nice vantage at the edge of the patio to watch the loop.

Greg