Track Cleaning MTS Trip

LGB-Sid

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My Track cleaner a 21670, trips the MTS 55006P when ever it enters the reverse loop which has a massoth unit on it, so there's a section of Dirty track along the fence that the cleaner won't get to, anybody else have tripping problems with a reverse loop and LGB MST system ? The Track cleaner I bought new this year and it's done this since I first put it on the track, but it runs and cleans as it should do everywhere else on the track.
 

PhilP

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Would this be as it crosses a point, by any chance? :wondering:
 

LGB-Sid

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it's at the point where Loco enters the short rail with the isolation joiners on it, Not sure now I have tried sending it through that part of the track with the cleaning function turned off, to see if it still trips , will try that tonight if I can
 

Paul M

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Seems the cleaning part is bridging the isolation points
 

LGB-Sid

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I didnt probally explain on sending the Loco over the joint without the cleaning part running, I was thinking, along the lines, if it is the amps a cleaning Loco uses that is doing it, or the vibrations causing the problem.
 

phils2um

Phil S
11 Sep 2015
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A couple of questions/thoughts. What happens if you enter the reversing segment with the track cleaning loco running backwards? Does the 55006p still trip? Is the reverse loop module working properly with all the rest of your locos and metal wheeled wagons? If so, you might try removing the reverse loop module internal jumper (assuming it is a LGB or Massoth unit) that will allow it to respond to shorts in addition to the sensor track segments and see if that helps.
 

LGB-Sid

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A couple of questions/thoughts. What happens if you enter the reversing segment with the track cleaning loco running backwards? Does the 55006p still trip? Is the reverse loop module working properly with all the rest of your locos and metal wheeled wagons? If so, you might try removing the reverse loop module internal jumper (assuming it is a LGB or Massoth unit) that will allow it to respond to shorts in addition to the sensor track segments and see if that helps.

Will try sending it in backwards, all other Locos are OK except a speadwald , but it runs and sounds like a bag of nails since the day I bought it , so not surprised with that one :) It is a massoth , will look to see if the jumper is in or out it's been a couple of years since it was installed and I have forgotten.
 

phils2um

Phil S
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One final thought. I've had a couple of instances where my module did not trip which resulted in a short. (I'm using only track sensors not short sensing.) Turned out that dirty/tarnished sensor segments caused the metal wheels to not trigger the circuit. Going at the sensor segments with a 50050 track cleaning block solved the problem. I was going the take the jumper out of my reversing unit but now that I know about the potential problem and solution, I haven't gotten around to it. I should remove the jumper anyway to enable short circuit sensing as a backup just to eliminate the issue.
 
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LGB-Sid

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Had a play , if I remove the jumper then the cleaning Loco will pass through the loop in both directions but stutters where the sensor tracks are, but... if I send something like a Stainz through the loop you get a nice flash as it causes the short circuit as it passes into the loop , when this is turned off with the jumper in then I don't get that, it has worked for two years with the jumper in. Will get the old hand cleaning block out tomorrow and clean the loop section and sensor tracks by hand to make sure its not that causing the problem and put the jumper back in and see what happens, the sparks might look good when it shorts, but dont want to damage the Locos or anything.
 

Gizzy

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I have a couple of reverse loops controlled by the LGB MTS modules, although I use a Massoth 1200Z.

I have no issues with my TCL on these loops, even when I run it with a pusher loco....

20200501_184744_0_.jpg
 
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phils2um

Phil S
11 Sep 2015
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if I send something like a Stainz through the loop you get a nice flash as it causes the short circuit as it passes into the loop , when this is turned off with the jumper in then I don't get that,
That is odd. The Massoth manual states:

"A mixed operation with sensor tracks
and short circuit detection is available. In case a sensor track does not work properly due to contaminated or corroded tracks, the short circuit detection will provide a correct operation at all times. The short circuit detection may be turned on/off with a jumper inside the module."

The polarity should already be changed if the sensors are functioning and no sparks will be seen when the Stainz enters the loop.
 

LGB-Sid

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I took the sensor tracks apart cleaned them made sure they were level when re-installed checked connections both ends and that all wires were connected correctly. First run or two with the track cleaner with the cleaning function off all OK going either way, pushed my luck and sent it through with the track cleaner on and it tripped . Today I have been testing my latest Stainz conversion and found at low speeds it will trip when it hits the sensor tracks. , if you go through it above a given speed all is OK tried it about 12 times at the correct speed and no trips. So I assume I have a failing reverse module or ? no idea why its doing this, nothing has really changed, I will try a few more Locos over it at various speeds this weekend to see what happens with them.

Jumper is in as it sparks on the sensor tracks with it removed.
 

LGB-Sid

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I think the fact the Cleaning Loco did this is nothing to do with that Loco but more the speed it runs, as you run them faily slow to do the job you bought it for, so that has shown up the problem, as my tracks are cleaner and every joint is now clamped then I can run all Locos a lot slower . Played with the speed with a few more Locos and at the right slow speed I can get it to trip with any now, just about always in the same position as below this is on exit from the Loop, engine going from Right to Left

So it's either run faster through the Loop and live with it :cry:, replace the reverse module in the hope it cures it ? or the control station o_O or run end to end and remove the Loop.



trip.jpg
 

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
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Can't quite tell, but it looks like the skate is bringing the RHS track-break, and the flange of the wheel on the left might just be bridging the LHS track-break. - As we look at it?

I think there should be a timing CV value on the (in the?) reversing module? - Might this need tweaking, to allow time for the loco to fully enter the section before switching? :nerd:
 

Greg Elmassian

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If the sensor track is "bypassed", then the system must throw the reverser based on the "Short", but if the sensor electronics are still on (which I think is always) you could make the system confused...

Can you set the autoreverser to "short detection only", and then remove the sensor wires from the module, and connect the short rails to one "side" or the other of the insulated area...

The idea is to run with short circuit detection only, and only have a single gap per rail (yes there will be a small gap, but not a 1 inch long insulated section).

(There's reasons that most people in the USA use short detection only on DCC, and specific brands that quickly determine/analyze the short, there's virtyally only one brand used in the USA for all intents and purposes).

Greg
 

LGB-Sid

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Phil , there might be a CV but no way of accessing it I don't think, as I run with a LGB55006 central station and a Massoth navigator handset. The front wheel is touching the left hand track and the skate is bridging the gap but, this reverse module should have already done its business and all three rail sections should be switched the same ?

Thanks Greg, when you say connect the short rails to one side of the loop is that with the insulated joiners or remove them and use say a brass clamp ? Will try this at the weekend, as it is beginning to get annoying every time it does this
 
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Greg Elmassian

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Well, I would remove the wires from the sensor tracks at the module... this way the module is only getting the "input" from the short.

I figured once you removed the wires from the sensor tracks at the module it might just be easy to connect them to the rails adjacent, much easier than replacing the insulators with solid joiners, so I was thinking this might be the easiest way.

of course if it is easy to swap out 2 of the 4 insulated joiners, that may be the easiest approach.

The whole idea is testing the theory that the current implementation may be sendind "mixed messages" to the module and causing issues.

I know in Europe there seems to be a great aversion to using the "detect a short and reverse" type of autoreverser, mainly because you get "sparks"... but I know that if you get down at track level and run at night, you will see plenty of sparks on just normal running.

So I maintain that the additional "sparking" of this type of autoreverser causes no additional problems..

of course on DC running, your options are limited for an off the shelf autoreverser, but for DCC, thousands of people here in the USA have no issues. I use the DCC Specialties PSX-AR autoreverser and it is programmable (by CV or jumper) for different trip points, cascaded autoreversers, etc.

Greg
 
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phils2um

Phil S
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As far as I am aware both the LGB and Massoth reverse loop modules do not have integal decoders. Thus, there are no settings to change. LGB-Sid's seems to be behaving very strangely. Maybe you should verify again how the sensor wires are connected to the module. I should mention that I did install the optional in-line diodes that were provided in my application. I ran an ESU decoder equipped LGB 2045 and train through my wye in every conceivable direction forwards and backwards with 4 metal wheel equipped wagons at a scale 2 kph last night. The reverser worked flawlessly with no observable sparking. The loco and train went through the sensors into and out of the reverser controlled track segment without any hesitation.
 
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Gizzy

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I'm not aware of any CV setting in the LGB reverse loop module. You wire it up and it works straight out of the box.

The only think you need to consider is the length of your longest train. In my case, this is a 6 car TEE set which has a power car at either end and is through wired via the coaches. So the first power unit is in the 'isolated section' a fair while before the end power car enters it.

I've had no sparking issues. I did have a problem where I could hear the internal relay 'ackling' (on both my modules as I have a double track reversing chord).

I reckon Sid has a faulty module but he will only prove it by swapping it out for another....
 
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