STEAM TRAMS : is there much interest for them on here?

Miamigo259

Miamigo259

Registered
24 Oct 2009
2,095
252
#41
Strange looking beastie, any more pictures?
Only that one of the tram engine, but several of the other items of rolling stock that were on display.
If I'd have had a digital camera back then, I expect there would have been several photos of everything!
 
P

Paul M

Registered
25 Oct 2016
2,122
757
55
Royston
#42
Only that one of the tram engine, but several of the other items of rolling stock that were on display.
If I'd have had a digital camera back then, I expect there would have been several photos of everything!
That's a shame, how did we cope with film?
 
trammayo

trammayo

Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
24 Oct 2009
20,361
3,175
70
Co. Mayo
#43
Spotted this one whilst looking through my photos this afternoon for something else..........

View attachment 231784

The photo was taken at the BHEV Museum in Szentendre, Hungary (near Budapest) in May 2002.
The loco dates from 1887
It certainly looks to have been "modernised" at some stage! It does not look right at all.
 
Miamigo259

Miamigo259

Registered
24 Oct 2009
2,095
252
#44
That's a shame, how did we cope with film?
Depends how many £££££ you wanted to spend on slide or print films at the time. Think the most I got through on a "long" trip (2 weeks+) was generally around 10 films, or 370 slides, if you were lucky. Compare this to the 1780 images taken on a digital camera for one 3 week trip to the USA in 2011 !!

Anyway, the Hungarian Museums website is throwing up a security issue when I try to access it, but a very good selection of photos of their exhibits is on this site...
http://hampage.hu/trams/szendre4/e_index.html

http://hampage.hu/trams/szendre7/e_index.html
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,510
3,130
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#45
It certainly looks to have been "modernised" at some stage! It does not look right at all.
I think this will probably be as built, Hungary is renowned for strange ideas of where to put things on their Trams/Trains. Just look at the Diesels in the second link from Post 44 above and they are not the oly ones by a long shot. Also if you return to look at the Trams in Post 18 you can see similarities to what our US friends would call Steam Dummies.

Which reminds me I would have thought there may be a few Steam Dummies to be posted on this thread. Come on you guys with all the Stars on your Flag!
 
Mallarddriver

Mallarddriver

Registered
9 Apr 2012
744
291
52
Skipton,UK
#46
Hey there,

I just found this,not a real tram but kind of:


Best regards
Soeren
 
trammayo

trammayo

Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
24 Oct 2009
20,361
3,175
70
Co. Mayo
#48
I think this will probably be as built, Hungary is renowned for strange ideas of where to put things on their Trams/Trains. Just look at the Diesels in the second link from Post 44 above and they are not the oly ones by a long shot. Also if you return to look at the Trams in Post 18 you can see similarities to what our US friends would call Steam Dummies.

Which reminds me I would have thought there may be a few Steam Dummies to be posted on this thread. Come on you guys with all the Stars on your Flag!
The livery alone isn't credible for the age of the engine - I think it looked better like this;-
proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fvillamosok.hu%2Fbhev%2Fjarmuvek%2Fgoz%2Fbhev4km.jpg&hash=2d74b72db4a55e136e34422a5def8132


I think this shot may have been taken whilst it was under restoration. I just googled it - a few images abour.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,510
3,130
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#49
Hey there,

I just found this,not a real tram but kind of:


Best regards
Soeren
Sorry Soeren but this does qualify definately a Steam Tram in my book. In fact one of the very first that I had seen when I visited back in 1993. The line is an amazing survival when you conside the length that it runs form the DB Station to the Lake. Well worth a visit and they have a very passable Diesel backuo as well.
 
trammayo

trammayo

Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
24 Oct 2009
20,361
3,175
70
Co. Mayo
#50
Well, the first thing is that the loco came from the Bradford Tramways and Omnibus Company (for whom it was built) and not Bradford Corporation Tramways. I have some notes somewhere. I'll dig them out.
Well I've spent some time looking for the information I thought I had! Cannot find it.

The Beaconsfield loco sports a Burrell type condensor. Thomas Green's supplied a batch to the Bradford operator - BT & O numbers 27 to 33.

27 was supplied on the 1st August, 1891 and the remaining six from the 29th of April, 1893 to the last two delivered on the 30th August 1893. All seven engines were compound types. A further two, standard cylinder arrangement, were 34 (Nov.18th, '93) and 35 (July 6th, '94) from Green's. Reputedly, 1896, the BT&O built one themselves - fleet No.36 - although I would think that it may have been second hand and rebuilt.
 
Melbournesparks

Melbournesparks

Registered
30 Sep 2015
208
377
City of Eltham
#51
I rather like steam trams, I have a 1:24 scale version of a Sydney tramways Baldwin steam tram motor and trailer.



The little Baldwins were remarkably versatile survivors, over their careers doing everything from high frequency tramway service on busy city streets, to hauling goods, timber and shunting heavy rail wagons. They were fast too, there's anecdotal accounts of Bondi expresses in the steam days reaching 80km/h. An 0-4-0 with tramway profile wheels must have been rather exciting at that speed!

Three survive today, two of which are operational.



Of the three, 1A is the only one not currently operational, though it has run in preservation and from what I understand would only need minor work to run again. Here it is on display at the Sydney tram museum, where it is currently on loan from the powerhouse museum. 1A was one of several motors built locally in Sydney by Henry Vale under license.

At some point it was converted to driver only operation, with duplicate controls on the right hand side of the boiler at each end, and the headlight moved up to roof level to provide better driver visibility.


By contrast no. 100 (now at the Auckland tram museum in NZ) still retains the original headlight position, and both sets of driving controls are on the same side of the boiler. 100 is fully restored and operational, but I always seem to visit when it's not running, hence the rather average picture!

In service the motors were fired on coke, which apparently meant the fire didn't need a whole lot of attention. The fireman usually stood on the front platform to make rude gestures at careless road users who got in the way.

As well as the Baldwins, Sydney trialed a few different UK made steam tram motors, one of which is mentioned earlier in this thread. They were not successful, generally being too small and light for the work required. Supposedly there was also a UK requirement that all motors made there be limited to a speed of 10mph, something that would have been very limiting in Sydney!

Victoria also had some steam tramways, though nowhere near as extensive as NSW. Melbourne had a huge and well developed cable tramway network from the 1880's, and the regional tramway systems typically went from horse traction straight to electric. The exception was Bendigo, which employed Baldwin motors similar to the NSW ones before electrification.

The difference between the quiet, clean and refined cable tramways in Melbourne and the whistling billowing smoke of the Sydney steam trams was said to be indicative of the difference in character of the two cities, a difference that persists to the present day!

There was another obscure operation in Victoria that was technically a steam tramway, though this one was 3'6"


The Sorrento tramway ran from the ferry wharf on Port Philip bay across to the back beach, employing little Baldwin 0-4-0's. They were generally similar to a proper steam tram motor, though without the duplicate controls and with a locomotive style cab. In this photo from around 1900 a tram trundles along Point Nepean road past the pub in Sorrento, on the way to the back beach. Sorrento was just as much of a tourist town then as it is now, more than once I've thought about the tramway on the longish walk from the ferry to the beach, 100 years after it closed.
 
trammayo

trammayo

Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
24 Oct 2009
20,361
3,175
70
Co. Mayo
#52
I rather like steam trams, I have a 1:24 scale version of a Sydney tramways Baldwin steam tram motor and trailer.

View attachment 231814

The little Baldwins were remarkably versatile survivors, over their careers doing everything from high frequency tramway service on busy city streets, to hauling goods, timber and shunting heavy rail wagons. They were fast too, there's anecdotal accounts of Bondi expresses in the steam days reaching 80km/h. An 0-4-0 with tramway profile wheels must have been rather exciting at that speed!

Three survive today, two of which are operational.

View attachment 231815

Of the three, 1A is the only one not currently operational, though it has run in preservation and from what I understand would only need minor work to run again. Here it is on display at the Sydney tram museum, where it is currently on loan from the powerhouse museum. 1A was one of several motors built locally in Sydney by Henry Vale under license.

At some point it was converted to driver only operation, with duplicate controls on the right hand side of the boiler at each end, and the headlight moved up to roof level to provide better driver visibility.

View attachment 231816
By contrast no. 100 (now at the Auckland tram museum in NZ) still retains the original headlight position, and both sets of driving controls are on the same side of the boiler. 100 is fully restored and operational, but I always seem to visit when it's not running, hence the rather average picture!

In service the motors were fired on coke, which apparently meant the fire didn't need a whole lot of attention. The fireman usually stood on the front platform to make rude gestures at careless road users who got in the way.

As well as the Baldwins, Sydney trialed a few different UK made steam tram motors, one of which is mentioned earlier in this thread. They were not successful, generally being too small and light for the work required. Supposedly there was also a UK requirement that all motors made there be limited to a speed of 10mph, something that would have been very limiting in Sydney!

Victoria also had some steam tramways, though nowhere near as extensive as NSW. Melbourne had a huge and well developed cable tramway network from the 1880's, and the regional tramway systems typically went from horse traction straight to electric. The exception was Bendigo, which employed Baldwin motors similar to the NSW ones before electrification.

The difference between the quiet, clean and refined cable tramways in Melbourne and the whistling billowing smoke of the Sydney steam trams was said to be indicative of the difference in character of the two cities, a difference that persists to the present day!

There was another obscure operation in Victoria that was technically a steam tramway, though this one was 3'6"

View attachment 231817
The Sorrento tramway ran from the ferry wharf on Port Philip bay across to the back beach, employing little Baldwin 0-4-0's. They were generally similar to a proper steam tram motor, though without the duplicate controls and with a locomotive style cab. In this photo from around 1900 a tram trundles along Point Nepean road past the pub in Sorrento, on the way to the back beach. Sorrento was just as much of a tourist town then as it is now, more than once I've thought about the tramway on the longish walk from the ferry to the beach, 100 years after it closed.
Nice photos. Interesting stuff about 1A - unions protesting over on the mainland UK about driver only operation - the engine driver must have had it's work cut out!

Like that little saddletank too.

Did Australian steam trams run on coke like the UK?
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,510
3,130
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#53
Miamigo259

Miamigo259

Registered
24 Oct 2009
2,095
252
#54
Wow they are beasts and Shays to boot.
They had some 0-6-0's as well, one of which makes a brief appearance in this film at around 06:10

 
Melbournesparks

Melbournesparks

Registered
30 Sep 2015
208
377
City of Eltham
#55
Nice photos. Interesting stuff about 1A - unions protesting over on the mainland UK about driver only operation - the engine driver must have had it's work cut out!

Like that little saddletank too.

Did Australian steam trams run on coke like the UK?
Yeah they used coke, at least in NSW government tramways service. I'm sure when various redundant steam motors found their way into various industrial and brachline operations they just burned whatever. Apparently the coke burned quite cleanly and efficiently, so stoking the fire at the terminus or the odd crossing loop was enough.

105A was an interesting prototype driver only conversion, much more sophisticated than the format eventually adopted.


The driving controls were moved from next to the boiler to the front platforms, giving the driver a clear view similar to an electric tram. The regulator and reversing lever can just be seen hanging down from the roof next to the driver's head in this photo. The drivers must have missed the weather protection of being inside the car body though, since 105A was later fitted with windscreens like an electric tram. By the time this conversion was done in 1905 it was already clear that electric traction was the future, and it was the only motor modified like this.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,510
3,130
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#56
Now a trip to Ireland. There were a few Steam Trams to be seen and one or two Railways that called themselves Tramways. I exclude the Cavan and Leitrim from this little survey, though the Agrina Branch to the Coal Mines was in fact always referred to as the Tramway no Skirts were involved. More about Skirts shortly. Sorry if some of the images are a little out of square.

So let us start with some true Steam Trams.
PORTSTEWART TRAMWAY.
We have visited the Portstewart line before in this thread as one of the two remarkable survivors is in Hull Transport Museum. The other is in the Irish Museum at Cultra near Belfast. These two were remarkable survivors as the line closed as early as 1926 after being taken over from the originating companies receivers by the B&NCR (Belfast and Northern Counties Railway) before being taken over by none other then the English MR then passing to the LMS. There are pictures showing the Steam Trams with MR (Midland Railway) and I think I have even seen one marked LMS (London Midland and Scottish).

SCHULL AND SKIBEREEN TRAMWAY
This line was in fact in all views somewhat like the Wisbech and Upwell running beside the Road for a greater part of its length. However in later years it ran more like a Railway but the early 3 Locomotives by Dick Kerr & Co named Marion, Ida and Ilen cannot be described as anything other than Steam Trams. Though Spam Can on Wheels would also be quite appropriate! The lines later Locomotives were all pretty conventional in looks.

THE GIANTS CAUSWAY TRAMWAY.
This line is a bit of a strange one, being built as an Electric Railway the eventual line was not Electrified into Portrush so Steam Trams were obtained to work that section and freight traffic over the complete Railway. Only in Ireland I guess. It has also been rebuilt in part as a Tourist Railway but no Steam Trams were built for the replacement.

CLOGHER VALLEY RAILWAY
Though called a Railway this was in many ways just like a Tramway in the way it ran through some of the Villages, Augher being a well known example where the line ran right along the High Street. The Locomotives as seen below had Skirts so I believe qualify as Steam Trams much as did the ones in Wales on the Glynn Valley Tramway. The partially Skirted Loco in the background of the pic below was the only Steam Tram that was not like the two in the foreground. These 2 were 0-4-2T whereas that other was an 0-4-4T. Other Steam Locomotives came later including a Sentinel but these to the best of my knowledge appeared to manage without Skirts.

THE CASTLEDERG & VICTORIA BRIDGE TRAMWAY
Now we are really pushing the envelope. This line qualifies in that first it was a Tramway and secondly the Locomotives all had Skirts though only on one side as the Road was only on that side! The Loco below was a Beyer Peacock (similar to the ones on the Isle of Man) that came from the NCC/LMS line at Larne. As you can see they certainly went over the top somewhat to turn this baby into a sort of Steam Tram. But only in Ireland would you see all this work to then allow most of the skirting to either disappear or not even be put in place.

TRALEE AND DINGLE
It is probably not too well known that this line had aspirations of a Tramway nature beskirting some of its Hunslet Locomotives. The 2-6-2 below still lives in the short bit of the line that has been preserved though sadly not operational at the present time. I have even seen a picture of one of the other 2-6-0 Locomotives from this line having Driving Controls on the rather long front of the Footplate which I guess was the reason why they were so long. The first 4 Locomotives on this line were fitted with Skirts due to the Tramway Regulations that were in force when the line opened. However the Skirts impeded access to parts that needed Oiling they were soon ‘Lost’ as would be the way of things in the Emerald Isles.

The Hensley below has no illusions to me about being a Steam Tram with Cabs at both ends and Skirts. The pic below this one shows it sans Skirts and very odd it looks like it. This and presumably at least one of the larger Hunslets had controls at both ends as the Castlegregory Branch did not have any Turntables at either end of the Branch.





This ends our little trip to the Emarald Isle Steam Trams. Sorry if you started reading this and it was not completed, I got interrupted part way creating this post.
 
Last edited:
casey jones snr

casey jones snr

Registered
20 Apr 2010
6,523
5,698
68
Charnwood Forest Railway. Rothley. Leics.
#57
Great historical pictures Jon. Thanks for finding and posting them.
 
trammayo

trammayo

Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
24 Oct 2009
20,361
3,175
70
Co. Mayo
#58
My interpretation of a Castlederg & Victoria Bridge Kitson engine, plus coach..
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,510
3,130
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#59
Sorry if you have read my Irish post before I completed it. I got interrupted during the creation and posted so as not to loose any work that I had done.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
13,510
3,130
70
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
#60
Awake in the middle of the night and thinking that my Irish Post is not complete as I have ignored the Irish Broad Gauge Tram systems where there may be the odd Steam Tram or two, Dublin and Blessington is one that comes immediately to mind. However first I have a slightly better view of one of the Giants Causway Steam Trams plus one of the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge ones. Plus another Steam Tramway that I had forgotten about.
GIANT CAUSWAY NO.3 Dunluce Castle Wilkinson Loco of 1886
CASTLEDERG AND VICTORIA BRIDGE. A Kitson product of the early 20th Century.

There now follows some views of the Larger Gauge Steam Trams in Ireland. Unlike UK not many Cities had Steam Trams most going either direct from Horse to Electric, Opening with Electric or closing down direct from Horse Trams.
CAVEHILL AND WHITWELL TRAMWAY (Belfast)
This line just about qualifies for Broad Gauge being built to 4'9" Gauge of the Belfast Tramway which ultimately took overvthe line with Electric Trams. One of the two only Kitson Steam Trams that ooerated on this line.

DUBLIN AND LUCAN STEAM TRAMWAY
This was a rather unusual Tramway in that it had 3 Gauges, 3' in Stram Tram days, 3'6" when the line was electrified then 5'3" when taken over by the DUTC. So another 3 foot that I have to add! The loco below is the last of 6 Kitson Steam Trams built in 1887. For the 7th and final Steam Tram a Green product of 1892 was purchased.

DUBLIN AND BLESSINGTON STEAM TRAMWAY COMPANY
This was the inly Irish Steam Tramway to operate Steam Trams in the Irish Broad Gauge of 5'3" chosen to match the Dublin Electric Trams it appears. I rather like the Push me You Pull T.Green Product shown in the following 2 pics. Dragging that Trailer it can hardly be described as anything other than a Steam Tram. It was not unusual to see more than 1 Trailer in the consist either.



There were also some Falcon Engines which when delivered had Skirts, these were lost at some stage

It was not unusual for a Goods Wagon Trailer to be added either. Altogether there were 2 Vans and 10 'Wagons' so conventional Freight Traffic was presumably not unknown, though I guess mostly conveyed as in the picture below. The Steam Trams were said to be capable of 40 MPH no doubt a scary trip on the upper deck with a Mad Driver at the Controls!

Thus I think ends our little trip to the Emerald Isle, what a fascinating set of Steam Trams they had, if only someone could get Time Travel working!