New guy here, and in need of help

R

rgaps

Registered
25 May 2019
2
1
70
Forest Grove, Oregon
To make a short story long, I've been running G-scale trains on my brother's layout (Lone Pine and Western Railroad) for a few years, every time he needs some help to show it off (yearly open house). Then I got a wild idea and decided it would be nice to have my own engine (his stuff is all narrow guage). So, I bid on and won an LGB 20892 (Sumpter Valley Mallet). Since my brother's layout is dead rail it will be necessary for me to convert the locomotive to battery and remote control. My first challenge was finding information on the 20892. I got the manuals and 'exploded' parts displays, but getting the thing apart was quite a challenge. That is when I found your web site/forum and found the information I was looking for on disassembly. The locomotive was manufactured in 1994 and is DCC ready, according to the Massoth web site (based on the sticker on the bottom). So I planned to use a Massoth eMOTION XL decoder, and for RC I was planning on using a receiver and hand controller from CVP Products (specifically the CONVRTR-60 receiver and T5000 wireless throttle), along with one of their 6.8 Ah lithium ion batteries. Now comes the fun part. I believe that all I have to do is connect the decoder to the existing PCB, using Massoth's 6 conductor cable, and then cut the two sets of white/brown wires that bring the power from the wheel pickups, and substitute power from the battery, via the CVP receiver. Sounds simple enough(?). One question I have has to do with two sets of wires that come from the rear drive unit to second PCB. One set has three black conductors, and the other has two black and one brown conductor. I was wondering what function they serve, if anyone knows. I have been unable to find any specific documentation on that. Any and all comments/suggestions will be appreciated.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,625
98
North Essex
Welcome to the forum, Rgaps (do you have an actual name we can call you, it generally feels much more polite to do so?).

Your 20892 appears to be a sound-equipped loco - from the info on the Champex-Linden database here:
....and I think it is most likely newer than 1994 - is that the year embossed into the gearbox bottom plates, in which case it will be the year of design/copyright for that actual part, not for the loco itself?
If there is a small round gold sticker under the loco, the first and last digits of the six-digit number on the sticker will indicate the actual year of manufacture (eg: a 1998 built model would be 9xxxx8, a 2003 model 0xxxx3). As it is a DCC-ready loco, I think that would mean it's probably no older than 1998-99, and may well be newer.

I would think that the two sets of cables from the rear power unit are one set for the chuff sensor, and one for the reed switch triggers for the bell and whistle; others may be able to tell you which is which.

As you're planning a dead-rail-DCC installation, these two threads may be of some use or interest - my own experiments with a broadly similar system (although using Tam Valley and Stanton components rather than CVP), both in LGB 2-motor locos.... in both these cases I used Massoth XLS sound decoders as the locos did not have factory sound boards installed; in both cases I wanted the ability to switch the locos back to track power and control at any time, which is simply accomplished by a second DPDT toggle switch for "battery-off-track" options (the first one controls the battery feed, with "run-off-charge" positions); when switched to "track", the wireless-DCC receiver is bypassed and the loco behanves like any normal track-powered DCC model. This gives me a model that I can basically take and run anywhere that there is 45mm gauge track available, whether it is powered or dead-rail.


Hope this may be of some use, good luck with your conversion!

Jon.
 
Bill Barnwell

Bill Barnwell

Registered
30 Sep 2017
544
47
75
Ormond Beach, Fl
To make a short story long, I've been running G-scale trains on my brother's layout (Lone Pine and Western Railroad) for a few years, every time he needs some help to show it off (yearly open house). Then I got a wild idea and decided it would be nice to have my own engine (his stuff is all narrow guage). So, I bid on and won an LGB 20892 (Sumpter Valley Mallet). Since my brother's layout is dead rail it will be necessary for me to convert the locomotive to battery and remote control. My first challenge was finding information on the 20892. I got the manuals and 'exploded' parts displays, but getting the thing apart was quite a challenge. That is when I found your web site/forum and found the information I was looking for on disassembly. The locomotive was manufactured in 1994 and is DCC ready, according to the Massoth web site (based on the sticker on the bottom). So I planned to use a Massoth eMOTION XL decoder, and for RC I was planning on using a receiver and hand controller from CVP Products (specifically the CONVRTR-60 receiver and T5000 wireless throttle), along with one of their 6.8 Ah lithium ion batteries. Now comes the fun part. I believe that all I have to do is connect the decoder to the existing PCB, using Massoth's 6 conductor cable, and then cut the two sets of white/brown wires that bring the power from the wheel pickups, and substitute power from the battery, via the CVP receiver. Sounds simple enough(?). One question I have has to do with two sets of wires that come from the rear drive unit to second PCB. One set has three black conductors, and the other has two black and one brown conductor. I was wondering what function they serve, if anyone knows. I have been unable to find any specific documentation on that. Any and all comments/suggestions will be appreciated.
See if this helps
To make a short story long, I've been running G-scale trains on my brother's layout (Lone Pine and Western Railroad) for a few years, every time he needs some help to show it off (yearly open house). Then I got a wild idea and decided it would be nice to have my own engine (his stuff is all narrow guage). So, I bid on and won an LGB 20892 (Sumpter Valley Mallet). Since my brother's layout is dead rail it will be necessary for me to convert the locomotive to battery and remote control. My first challenge was finding information on the 20892. I got the manuals and 'exploded' parts displays, but getting the thing apart was quite a challenge. That is when I found your web site/forum and found the information I was looking for on disassembly. The locomotive was manufactured in 1994 and is DCC ready, according to the Massoth web site (based on the sticker on the bottom). So I planned to use a Massoth eMOTION XL decoder, and for RC I was planning on using a receiver and hand controller from CVP Products (specifically the CONVRTR-60 receiver and T5000 wireless throttle), along with one of their 6.8 Ah lithium ion batteries. Now comes the fun part. I believe that all I have to do is connect the decoder to the existing PCB, using Massoth's 6 conductor cable, and then cut the two sets of white/brown wires that bring the power from the wheel pickups, and substitute power from the battery, via the CVP receiver. Sounds simple enough(?). One question I have has to do with two sets of wires that come from the rear drive unit to second PCB. One set has three black conductors, and the other has two black and one brown conductor. I was wondering what function they serve, if anyone knows. I have been unable to find any specific documentation on that. Any and all comments/suggestions will be appreciated.
see if this helps click on the 2085 wiring. pdf
 

Attachments

Madman

Madman

Registered
25 Oct 2009
12,965
115
Pennsylvania, USA
Welcome aboard. If you haven't already decided on an operating system for your battery powered loco, visit G Scale Graphics site. It's battery conversions made simple.

 
R

rgaps

Registered
25 May 2019
2
1
70
Forest Grove, Oregon
Welcome to the forum, Rgaps (do you have an actual name we can call you, it generally feels much more polite to do so?).

Your 20892 appears to be a sound-equipped loco - from the info on the Champex-Linden database here:
....and I think it is most likely newer than 1994 - is that the year embossed into the gearbox bottom plates, in which case it will be the year of design/copyright for that actual part, not for the loco itself?
If there is a small round gold sticker under the loco, the first and last digits of the six-digit number on the sticker will indicate the actual year of manufacture (eg: a 1998 built model would be 9xxxx8, a 2003 model 0xxxx3). As it is a DCC-ready loco, I think that would mean it's probably no older than 1998-99, and may well be newer.

I would think that the two sets of cables from the rear power unit are one set for the chuff sensor, and one for the reed switch triggers for the bell and whistle; others may be able to tell you which is which.

As you're planning a dead-rail-DCC installation, these two threads may be of some use or interest - my own experiments with a broadly similar system (although using Tam Valley and Stanton components rather than CVP), both in LGB 2-motor locos.... in both these cases I used Massoth XLS sound decoders as the locos did not have factory sound boards installed; in both cases I wanted the ability to switch the locos back to track power and control at any time, which is simply accomplished by a second DPDT toggle switch for "battery-off-track" options (the first one controls the battery feed, with "run-off-charge" positions); when switched to "track", the wireless-DCC receiver is bypassed and the loco behanves like any normal track-powered DCC model. This gives me a model that I can basically take and run anywhere that there is 45mm gauge track available, whether it is powered or dead-rail.


Hope this may be of some use, good luck with your conversion!

Jon.
My father always said "It doesn't matter what they call you, as long as they call you for dinner.", but my name is actually 'Rick'. I appreciate your information. So it seems that the locomotive was manufactured in 2001, according to the sticker you mentioned. And I like the suggestion on making it easily switchable back to track power. Now all that remains is getting the parts and doing the work. thanks again.


Rick
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,625
98
North Essex
Thanks Rick, and welcome again!
Good luck with your installation; the only other thing that came to mind that you may need to work around is that the factory sound board in the loco may (due to its age) only respond to "serial" commands rather than the "parallel" commands used by more modern equipment - you should be able to set your XL decoder up to output serial commands, but others on here who know the technical stuff more thoroughly than I do may be able to advise whether this will cause any complications with the signals from the CVP wireless system. I don't THINK you will have any trouble, as the CVP convertr will most likely output a parallel command set which the XL should be able to re-interpret in to the serial commands that the sound board may need - but maybe some of Those Wot Know Stuff can confirm this....?

Jon.
 
P

Paul M

Registered
25 Oct 2016
2,871
148
56
Royston
Welcome Rick. Seems you have already tapped a good seam of knowledge
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
346
4
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
Yep Rick, they all have valid suggestions, welcome.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,625
98
North Essex
Rick, I know you said in your first post that you had already chosen the CVP system - but if you haven't actually purchased it yet, there is also the new DCC version of the Crest Revolution system to consider; I'm not recommending one over the other, as I have no idea how they actually compare either in technical specs or on price, but it might be worth looking into both of them before making your final choice, as both seem to do effectively the same job.

Jon.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
14,638
262
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Rick, I know you said in your first post that you had already chosen the CVP system - but if you haven't actually purchased it yet, there is also the new DCC version of the Crest Revolution system to consider; I'm not recommending one over the other, as I have no idea how they actually compare either in technical specs or on price, but it might be worth looking into both of them before making your final choice, as both seem to do effectively the same job.

Jon.
Welcome to the Forum Rick, I was going to say that but Jon. beat me to it. If you look in the Battery Forum you will see that I reviewed and Test Ran the Aristo and a UK Based Dead Rail System. I imagine either of them or the CVP would be ideal but I fell you may like to see how easy it is to fit any of them. My review should go some way to helping you.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,625
98
North Essex
Welcome to the Forum Rick, I was going to say that but Jon. beat me to it. If you look in the Battery Forum you will see that I reviewed and Test Ran the Aristo and a UK Based Dead Rail System. I imagine either of them or the CVP would be ideal but I fell you may like to see how easy it is to fit any of them. My review should go some way to helping you.
For the avoidance of any confusion, note that the "Aristo" setup than JonD refers to here is the Crest Revolution one that I mentioned - Aristocraft USED to be heavily involved with Crest Electronics (i'm sure that Greg will be able to clarify the exact relationship between the two), but since Aristocraft's demise Crest has continued as a separate enterprise - I don't think you will now find any mention of the Aristocraft name in relation to Crest's current website and products.

Jon.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
22,947
334
Tamworth, Staffs.
I don't think you will now find any mention of the Aristocraft name in relation to Crest's current website and products.
But confusingly (as the web never forgets anything) Walthers.com still lists an 'Aristcraft' system as not available, and seems to link to the Crest DCC system, when you drill-down. :(
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,727
136
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Just for mentioning:

The Polks had a hobby store, mostly model planes, they made model airplane controllers under contract with a company, I think Korea.

The Polks got into the model railroad business by making a scaled up copy of a Lionel caboose, and an exact copy of LGB track, and started making electronic controllers.

When they were sued by LGB, they almost lost the business and Crest was formed as a separate company from the model train business, and Aristo Craft and Crest emerged as separate companies.

When Aristo went bust, Crest survived as the already separate company, but that only lasted a couple of years, but then the original electronics designer bought the rights to the product and now calls the company PrecisionRC (even though the web site domain name is RevoElectronics)

So, this original designer and engineer, and Navin, who has been with Aristo forever are carrying the product line forwards, so in terms of design and support it has been uninterrupted really since inception years ago.

Congrats to them for keeping the product line alive and innovating new products.

Greg
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,625
98
North Essex
Thanks for the clarification, Greg, I knew you were the one to have all the inside info.....

I admit I'd never heard about the LGB lawsuit - was it about the track?

Jon.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,727
136
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Yep, the molding of the ties was exact, the wood grain patterns identical to LGB. They almost went under.

The original company that predated Aristo was called REA and I have forgotten Nat Polk's partner, but they were a dealer/distributor for LGB in 1984.

1988 LGB terminates contract, 1992 Aristo goes into chapter 11 bankruptcy from $17 million suit from LGB, they (Aristo) eventually win and survive...

Greg
 
Gizzy

Gizzy

Railways, Aviation, Caravanning....
26 Oct 2009
32,399
111
Cambridgeshire
www.gscalecentral.net
Welcome to the forum Rick....