Massoth DiMAX 800Z unit

FrenchChuffed

FrenchChuffed

Registered
27 Mar 2016
180
Droitwich Spa
This is with the unit on obviously and the trai selected with an LGB standard sound unit so it’s emitting its sound so power on the track
536ACC4C-6330-467D-985A-46D6778F473E.jpeg
 
Ralphmp

Ralphmp

Registered
6 Jan 2010
985
Herts
I’ve had this on occasions with my 1200Z and Navi. Usually a result of putting loco on powered up track with cab switch set to one of the “on” positions. Usually fixed by turning cab switch off, turning Navi off, turning Navi on and then turning cab switch on. No idea what the root cause is but as my workaround works ok I’m ok with that.
 
FrenchChuffed

FrenchChuffed

Registered
27 Mar 2016
180
Droitwich Spa
Thanks for the reply, if i could understand it. my problem is it worked when i packed it all way 5 years ago and i have forgotten most of how it all works its an age thing. Is there a reset on the C/S or do i need to go through the menu to check things.
 
The Shed

The Shed

Registered
Thanks for the reply, if i could understand it. my problem is it worked when i packed it all way 5 years ago and i have forgotten most of how it all works its an age thing. Is there a reset on the C/S or do i need to go through the menu to check things.
The Navigator handset shows a -A, something is amiss, case of work through the Menus on both the CS and Navigator, and re check the various settings, cables and connections to the Control Port.

EDIT:
Unable to create the -A, swapped all the equipment around between both the PIKO CS and the Massoth CS, all cables, RC Receivers, both Navigators, including changing settings in RC Config and Navigator Config.

If connected to the PIKO CS both Navigators show as 5A where the -A is, like wise if connected to the Massoth CS both show 4A where the -A is.

Likewise if a Loco is on the track and connected to a Navigator, the Ia and Ip change accordingly.

All my equipment except the PIKO CS which is not upgrade-able, everything else has had their Firmware systematically updated to the latest revisions, and reconfigured, therefore any previous bugs, anomalies etc, have long been resolved, can't be of any further help on this I'm afraid.

Unless something obvious, suggest send an email to Massoth Tech Support.
 
Last edited:
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
17,541
72
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Thanks for the reply, if i could understand it. my problem is it worked when i packed it all way 5 years ago and i have forgotten most of how it all works its an age thing. Is there a reset on the C/S or do i need to go through the menu to check things.
If you have a spare yard of rail I would be tempted to set that up as a test. If that does not work then you may need to follow others advice and follow through with that advice.
 
LGB333

LGB333

Active Member
This perhaps should be in the “help please I give up “ section i have just dug out my Masoth central station out of a box Where it has been for 5 years connected it up to the power supply and track and the handset idled up the locomotive and nothing . The Centers station powered up and the display is working. For starters —— How do I check the output of the unit anyone please?
Hi FrenchChuffed - I have the Massoth and Piko Central Stations and use the Massoth Navigator with them. I suggest set the address and speed steps again for one of your locos on a separate programming track connected to your Central Station. Press M3 to bring up thje Main Menu, Press M1 to toggle down to Decoder Progr., press OK; then on the Loco Address screen, Press OK, to drop down to Address line, enter the Address, Press OK, then on Speed Steps Line, enter usually 28 Speed Steps, then Press OK, etc. The last OK you do in the sequence, the loco should "jump" to acknowlege activation of the settings on the decoder. You should be able to then activate the loco on your programming track with your Navigator by then using the Address you just set.........helps if you have a set of Roller Wheels to place the loco onto your programming track. Let us know if that did the trick.
 
LGB333

LGB333

Active Member
Tom, aren't the references to "programming track" in your last sentence meant to be "main line"? Just wanting to learn the arcane ways here.
Hi Greg - I use the term "programming track" to mean a separate piece of track connected to the command station/central station to program a loco's decoder. I use a Piko Central Station for my Programming Track. Guess I learned the terms from the Soundtraxx DCC Decoder documentation when I first started installing their decoders into locomotives about five years ago. According to the Soundtraxx documentation, Service Mode programming means using a separate programming track connected to the command station. Soundtrax states that Operations Mode programming refers to "programming on the main" or as you stated, "main line" programming.

Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I always use Service Mode programming with a separate programming track when I'm doing a loco DCC decoder CV changes. For initial DCC decoder set ups for Massoth DCC Decoders, I use my Massoth PC Module; or for ESU DCC Decoders, the ESU LokSound Programmer, and using either unit requires the Module to be connected to a separate piece of programming track. The Massoth PC Module also allows using a fast SUSI connection to a Massoth decoder not installed into a loco for loading sound files, takes about a third of the time than using the decoder installed into a loco on the programming track where the loco "jumps" for each data element received. For the pesky Soundtraxx Tsunmai2 4400 series DCC Sound Decoders, I have to use my Piko Central Station connected to a programming track and my Navigator to program the CVs.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
4,053
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Still confused, or I did not explain myself....

You should be able to then activate the loco on your programming track with your Navigator by then using the Address you just set.........helps if you have a set of Roller Wheels to place the loco onto your programming track. Let us know if that did the trick.

So, you reference "your programming track"..... if you are in service mode, you do not use a loco address....

You indicate activate the loco on the programming track by using the address.....

so, do you mean switch the physical track back to "main" operation from service mode? My Zimo has 2 track outputs, and one will switch between normal DCC mainline and service mode... perhaps this is what you were implying... just not clear... seeing "programming track" and "DCC address" in the same sentence is not right to me..

Hope this explains what I was asking... the part in red...

Greg
 
LGB333

LGB333

Active Member
Still confused, or I did not explain myself....

You should be able to then activate the loco on your programming track with your Navigator by then using the Address you just set.........helps if you have a set of Roller Wheels to place the loco onto your programming track. Let us know if that did the trick.

So, you reference "your programming track"..... if you are in service mode, you do not use a loco address....

You indicate activate the loco on the programming track by using the address.....

so, do you mean switch the physical track back to "main" operation from service mode? My Zimo has 2 track outputs, and one will switch between normal DCC mainline and service mode... perhaps this is what you were implying... just not clear... seeing "programming track" and "DCC address" in the same sentence is not right to me..

Hope this explains what I was asking... the part in red...

Greg
Greg - Maybe we're having some symantics or definitions challenges. I use Service Mode to mean programming CVs on a loco's decoder on a separate programming track connected to a DCC Command Station.........there are no other locos on the track. And to do that, I use the loco's Address. I then also "test" the CV's effects by operating the loco on the roller wheels on the programming track. It appears your definition of "Service Mode" does not require use of the loco's Address, nor for testing the operation of the loco on the Programming Track. Where is your definition of Service Mode defined, NRMA definitions? My Piko Central Station, and I would guess a lot of DCC Command Stations, do not have separate Operations Mode DCC Outputs and Service Mode Outputs. How does Service Mode in your Zimo Command Station work technically to program a decoder when no loco Address is used?
 
FrenchChuffed

FrenchChuffed

Registered
27 Mar 2016
180
Droitwich Spa
Thanks for all the comments i will try and get my head round it all. I have tried my Locos out on a friends track recently and my locos and hand controller work on his setup so i think i have a problem with my central station. I have never done POM programming on track. I have always used my computer and a programming track but it was on my old computer running XP with an LGB program So i need to set up a new computer to rain my massoth PC module onto a programming track. Then i can check the locos but i think as i said there all ok.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
4,053
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Tom, service mode is the ONLY condition where you do not NEED nor USE the address of the loco... Service mode is defined in the NMRA specification...

yes many command station/booster combinations can switch a track output to service mode from the normal mainline output, as opposed to haveing a dedicated program track output (which only does service mode)

When you enter service mode, there should be NO requirement to enter the address to use it... yes you can set the loco address while in service mode, to wit: short address, long address, consist address.....

BUT the USE of service mode does not REQUIRE entering any address, which I have said consistently in this thread.

again, I have trouble with this statement of yours: You should be able to then activate the loco on your programming track with your Navigator by then using the Address you just set..

the "programming track" is a bad term to use, as many people will associate the MODE of communication with the physical track.... not the actual process of entering service mode

when you say activate the loco on the programming track, you have stated before this is service mode....

you do NOT use any address to "activate" a loco in service mode... service mode will talk to all CV's irrespective of any address in the loco...

This is why I continually counsel to use the terms "in service mode" which is the NMRA wording, or at least "in programming mode", but even that is dangerous as people can program on the mainline....

I just encountered an issue with some friends developing the BlueRail system here in the US and they were having all kinds of issues that made no sense whatsoever.

I found out that the developer had issues with reading CV's and really service mode, so when this system is in "programming mode", it actually WRITES CV's with POM, Programming On the Main, but it reads CV's in service mode, BUT it can only read a few CVs, and it NEVER writes CV's in true service mode.. and it will not read CV29 correctly....

So they had a loco where they read CV1 and got 3, and tried address 3 and nothing worked.... it turns out it was set to a long address, but since they could not read CV29 (nor 17 or 18) they had no idea what was wrong, making the erroneous assumption that short addressing was enabled when it was not.

They blamed the decoder.... I have encouraged them to make service mode work properly, but they think they can avoid this need by hard resetting a decoder, forcing it to short address 3.... what a mess!

So, maybe this helps illustrate why I can be a stickler for what is REALLY going on, and keeping the terminology straight... they had a programming mode, but it was NOT really service mode... on all CV's....

Greg
 
LGB333

LGB333

Active Member
Tom, service mode is the ONLY condition where you do not NEED nor USE the address of the loco... Service mode is defined in the NMRA specification...

yes many command station/booster combinations can switch a track output to service mode from the normal mainline output, as opposed to haveing a dedicated program track output (which only does service mode)

When you enter service mode, there should be NO requirement to enter the address to use it... yes you can set the loco address while in service mode, to wit: short address, long address, consist address.....

BUT the USE of service mode does not REQUIRE entering any address, which I have said consistently in this thread.

again, I have trouble with this statement of yours: You should be able to then activate the loco on your programming track with your Navigator by then using the Address you just set..

the "programming track" is a bad term to use, as many people will associate the MODE of communication with the physical track.... not the actual process of entering service mode

when you say activate the loco on the programming track, you have stated before this is service mode....

you do NOT use any address to "activate" a loco in service mode... service mode will talk to all CV's irrespective of any address in the loco...

This is why I continually counsel to use the terms "in service mode" which is the NMRA wording, or at least "in programming mode", but even that is dangerous as people can program on the mainline....

I just encountered an issue with some friends developing the BlueRail system here in the US and they were having all kinds of issues that made no sense whatsoever.

I found out that the developer had issues with reading CV's and really service mode, so when this system is in "programming mode", it actually WRITES CV's with POM, Programming On the Main, but it reads CV's in service mode, BUT it can only read a few CVs, and it NEVER writes CV's in true service mode.. and it will not read CV29 correctly....

So they had a loco where they read CV1 and got 3, and tried address 3 and nothing worked.... it turns out it was set to a long address, but since they could not read CV29 (nor 17 or 18) they had no idea what was wrong, making the erroneous assumption that short addressing was enabled when it was not.

They blamed the decoder.... I have encouraged them to make service mode work properly, but they think they can avoid this need by hard resetting a decoder, forcing it to short address 3.... what a mess!

So, maybe this helps illustrate why I can be a stickler for what is REALLY going on, and keeping the terminology straight... they had a programming mode, but it was NOT really service mode... on all CV's....

Greg
Greg - Very interesting technical information you've offered. I did read through the NMRA's Service Mode definition which does mention in F: Methods of Programming Required, that all Command Stations and Programmers must effective August 2002 must implement Direct Mode, to include CV #1 in Address-Only Mode. Anyway, not to "beat a dead horse", when I use my Piko Central Station to setup a DCC decoder, I use a separate piece of track connected to it, use Default Address 3, and then program CVs. So, technically I'm using Operations Mode on a separate programming track, but Operations Mode is usually done On the Main. So, what do you suggest I call the use of a DCC Command Station that has no Service Mode Programming feature to program CVs on a Programming Track using Address CV#1, and to also test the decoder operationally, using this same Programming Track? How about a Service/Operations Mode Programming Track?

And you're corect, my Massoth PC Module Programmer and ESU LokProgrammer, don't require an Address to be used to program CVs. The Massoth Programmer doesn't have a operational test feature; the ESU Programmer does have this feature, and you must use the decoder's assigned Address to use it.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
4,053
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Tom, I find it actually unbelievable that the system does not have service mode, but maybe it is true, and you must use different hardware to attain service mode.

There is no need for further confusion, no matter what physical piece of track, there is service mode and operations mode...

Yes, in service mode, there are actually 3 protocols that can be used, direct, register, and paged.... not all systems support these, but all of them support reading of CV's and this mode needs no input of the address of the loco.

This is one thing I hate about the "easy to use systems", many things are "hidden" and not explained... "just do it this way"...

DCC is fundamentally very simple, and there are very few hard requirements, many things are optional, but as you have found from the specification, the system REQUIRES the ability to run in service mode and operations mode.... Other than a system used for display running at a show, I would never consider purchasing a "crippled" system to save a few bucks.

Greg
 
FrenchChuffed

FrenchChuffed

Registered
27 Mar 2016
180
Droitwich Spa
Well the initial problem seems to have been fixed by a long overdue Central Station update. More testing this afternoon and i will give a further update
 
FrenchChuffed

FrenchChuffed

Registered
27 Mar 2016
180
Droitwich Spa
Sorry for the trip off into the weeds! Glad the problem is solved!

Greg
The odd trip of into the weeds are quite often informative or amusing, It’s been a very frustrating time i was on the verge of returning it to Germany., so now i just have to sort the odd glitch in one or two loco’s ....I feel another thread coming on lol..