LGB new to this DCC help?

[dunnyrail]

A further option might be a Hornby HM7000 decoder.

pros would be that it's Bluetooth and easy to change the sound profile through the Hornby App , it's a 1A-1.5A decoder so it will drive a single motor LGB loco just fine and Hornby are widely supported in the UK.

Hornby have started to create sound profiles for international locomotives, the first of which is due Q2 2025, for an Italian E656, but Rivarossi also do some US outline steam and of course a Big Boy sound profile in LGB starter set locomotive would likely be epic

Downside would be that you may need to go with a UK sound profile for the short-medium term, compatibility between Hornby and lgb would need to be checked or you could just use the 4A/15V power pack that Hornby provide and plug it straight into the track and set aside the MTS system.

I would add that I've only used the HM7000 decoder in TT so there may be scaleup issues that I haven't seen.

I have some TT120 sound locomotives, they are a pain as the chips do not come with latest upgrades so before you can do anything you need an age to update them. Plus my A4 and A3’s only do 2 beats to the revolution of the wheels rather than 6. It is not currently possible to update that and Hornby do not give a fig, I asked them about it.

 

[walkerart]

So I spoke to a lovely chap today who told me NMRA (National Model Railroad Association):

That this is a set standard meaning all deciders have to work with other op systems… and allow cv’s to be set?

So I don’t need to worry I may need to change the decider I just need one that’s good for my loco?

So I feel I’m getting closer.


So any suggestions to fit this little loco bit with the chance to add sound would be great.

And thank you for the info so far.

Chris

 

[craigwrdouglas2]

I have some TT120 sound locomotives, they are a pain as the chips do not come with latest upgrades so before you can do anything you need an age to update them. Plus my A4 and A3’s only do 2 beats to the revolution of the wheels rather than 6. It is not currently possible to update that and Hornby do not give a fig, I asked them about it.

Sure, but I'm sure you'd agree that updating the firmware by clicking update in the app and waiting 10 mins for the data to be transferred, then power cycling the locomotive or by clicking a sound profile for the locomotive to install is much easier with the Hornby hm7000 system than it is with the Massoth system.

 

[walkerart]

SPROG 3

All the features of the SPROG II with 2.5 Amp maximum output current.

www.sprog-dcc.co.uk

it's for programming your loco CVs through your pc. - it's compatible with JMRI's Decoder pro application.

Broadly the sound traxx system looks similar to the Hornby hm7000 system. It is an alternative to LGB MTS system, i.e. locomotives that have a SoundTraxx Bluetooth decoder can be controlled by the phone app that SoundTraxx provide - in that case the phone connects to each loco as an independent Bluetooth device.. locomotives that don't have Bluetooth can't be controlled by the app, but could be controlled by the MTS system. Additionally the soundtrax chip should work with your mts system.

Hi
So it’s a good idea for me to be sure I have decoders with blue tooth?

So from my chat today I learnt NMRA is a standard that means all decoders will work on all control systems?
So I don’t need to worry about which brand?

That said I still don’t know if all decoders fit my loco which has nine ports?



So how many wires or inputs do most decoders have?
I now know cv’s are the things one can programme like speed lights sound.

So I’m guessing each of these has a wire going to a port to allow the control.?

So if I start with my LGB MTS but intend to move on to an iPad type control I will need to include Bluetooth from the start?

Hope you are all well.
Chris

 

[walkerart]

So I spoke to a lovely chap today who told me NMRA (National Model Railroad Association):

That this is a set standard meaning all deciders have to work with other op systems… and allow cv’s to be set?

So I don’t need to worry I may need to change the decider I just need one that’s good for my loco?

So I feel I’m getting closer.
View attachment 341368

So any suggestions to fit this little loco bit with the chance to add sound would be great.

And thank you for the info so far.

Chris

Sorry decoder not decider bad text thumb

 

[PhilP]

So, NMRA came up with the DCC definition/standard, and all systems are compatible.
-ish........

As you have already found out, things have changed over time.
Features have been added, and there is also how a particular manufacturer interprets the standards.

Any DCC Central Station, will talk (theoretically) to any decoder, but if you have an older loco, it may not take (easily) a modern decoder.
The CS may not support certain new features.
Both these will limit what we can and can't do.

There is nothing in the standards about control over Bluetooth, or WiFi, or any other proprietor RC system.

If you buy a decoder which does allow you to control it from a tablet or phone, this will be proprietor to that manufacturer. - You won't be able to control another manufacturers decoder, unless you have that manufacturers app as well.
You should be able to control both manufacturers decoders via a true track-powered DCC system. - If not, then it is not DCC, whatever it says on the packet.
It may be using DCC components, but is not a 'true' DCC system.

Every wireless/Bluetooth implementation is proprietary to that manufacturer / system.

Massoth have their Navigator handsets, that can be wired or wireless to their Central Station.

Some systems have an app available that you can run on a phone or tablet. - Do check that the system you want to use is supported by the tablet/phone 'family' you wish to use. - Not everyone is available for both Apple and Android.

Once you have made a decision which manufacturer to go with, you tend to stick to that manufacturers decoders. - It is just easier, to stick with what you know.


To the specifics of your present loco:
You are looking at either an LGB, or a Massoth, decoder to 'just plug in'.
This won't have sound, so you would then Neen to add a second decoder to give you sound.

Alternatively, you strip out the original board, fit a modern sound (and driving) decoder of your choice, and then wire it into the loco.

By much the easiest route to get you going, will be to buy a LGB or Massoth decoder, which will plug into the existing board in the loco.

You can play with this, and learn a little about CV's and what you can and can't do.
Then perhaps fit a decoder to a second loco, but something more modern, which may well require a little more knowledge.

PhilP.

 

[craigwrdouglas2]

Hi
So it’s a good idea for me to be sure I have decoders with blue tooth?

So from my chat today I learnt NMRA is a standard that means all decoders will work on all control systems?
So I don’t need to worry about which brand?

That said I still don’t know if all decoders fit my loco which has nine ports?

View attachment 341372

So how many wires or inputs do most decoders have?
I now know cv’s are the things one can programme like speed lights sound.

So I’m guessing each of these has a wire going to a port to allow the control.?

So if I start with my LGB MTS but intend to move on to an iPad type control I will need to include Bluetooth from the start?

Hope you are all well.
Chris

CVs are configuration Values - these are settings in software, (such as the Id of the loco and which direction is forward).

The board you have can be mapped to NEM652 (8 pin) , yes there are 9 pins, but 3 of them are the same and 2 you won't use (directional lighting) and another if you don't have a smoke unit.



If you want to control with an Ipad, then you need to buy the chips from whoever makes the app.

You could go with the Massoth/LGB system but to switch to a bluetooth system later, but you would need to replace the driving / sound decoders. If you don't cut off wires, and keep the box etc, you may be able to sell massoth decoders later if you decode to replace them.

You could fit a Massoth/LGB driving decoder (L) and add a massoth sound module (S) later. If you go a though this will add up to a bit more than a single (LS) chip would cost.

 

[dunnyrail]

Sure, but I'm sure you'd agree that updating the firmware by clicking update in the app and waiting 10 mins for the data to be transferred, then power cycling the locomotive or by clicking a sound profile for the locomotive to install is much easier with the Hornby hm7000 system than it is with the Massoth system.

No never updated a Massoth chip, they work straight from the box exactly as I need with no faffing with firmware or any other kind of clothing.

 

[dunnyrail]

Hi
So it’s a good idea for me to be sure I have decoders with blue tooth?

So from my chat today I learnt NMRA is a standard that means all decoders will work on all control systems?
So I don’t need to worry about which brand?

That said I still don’t know if all decoders fit my loco which has nine ports?

View attachment 341372

So how many wires or inputs do most decoders have?
I now know cv’s are the things one can programme like speed lights sound.

So I’m guessing each of these has a wire going to a port to allow the control.?

The CV ‘configurable variables’ are stored within the chip, each different decoder is likely to have a different set which each one can do different things in some cases in an extremely complex way. Thus only 2 wires go into the chip from the track with the command from the handset asking the relevant Cv ti do things say blow a whistle of accelerate or slow down.

Sound, ways to control speed, differing types of motor and lighting can all have a set of Cv’s to make things operate in differing ways as I said not the same in each decoder type.

So if I start with my LGB MTS but intend to move on to an iPad type control I will need to include Bluetooth from the start?

Hope you are all well.
Chris

One can look to using control via an iPad or phone, however do you want to be forever looking at your phone to see what you are asking the loco to do OR do you want to watch your train go round and twiddle a knob or press an actual button (without looking at the controller once you get used to it) to get things to happen?

I know which I prefer…..

 

[walkerart]

CVs are configuration Values - these are settings in software, (such as the Id of the loco and which direction is forward).

The board you have can be mapped to NEM652 (8 pin) , yes there are 9 pins, but 3 of them are the same and 2 you won't use (directional lighting) and another if you don't have a smoke unit.

View attachment 341373

If you want to control with an Ipad, then you need to buy the chips from whoever makes the app.

You could go with the Massoth/LGB system but to switch to a bluetooth system later, but you would need to replace the driving / sound decoders. If you don't cut off wires, and keep the box etc, you may be able to sell massoth decoders later if you decode to replace them.

You could fit a Massoth/LGB driving decoder (L) and add a massoth sound module (S) later. If you go a though this will add up to a bit more than a single (LS) chip would cost.

Hi this very interesting thanks. The loco does have directional lights with a white head light front and on the tender.
It also has smoke. So where would these two cvs plug in please?

 

[PhilP]

Google is your friend..

I think you need to download the LGB 55021 manual (or Massoth equivalent)..

The pairs of pins on the right above are for 'LF' and 'LR'. - The top ones are decoder + which is the common return under DCC.
The 'F1' pin in the centre of the decoder would be used for smoke.

Be aware, that by default, All function outputs will be at full track voltage.
There are CV's which you need to set to lower the voltage for 5V bulbs and your smoke unit.

PhilP.

 

[walkerart]

The CV ‘configurable variables’ are stored within the chip, each different decoder is likely to have a different set which each one can do different things in some cases in an extremely complex way. Thus only 2 wires go into the chip from the track with the command from the handset asking the relevant Cv ti do things say blow a whistle of accelerate or slow down.

Sound, ways to control speed, differing types of motor and lighting can all have a set of Cv’s to make things operate in differing ways as I said not the same in each decoder type.

One can look to using control via an iPad or phone, however do you want to be forever looking at your phone to see what you are asking the loco to do OR do you want to watch your train go round and twiddle a knob or press an actual button (without looking at the controller once you get used to it) to get things to happen?

I know which I prefer…..

You know what your iPad thought is a really good point. One I hadn’t thought about. But yes without a button you would spend a lot of time looking the screen.
Also given I got a MTS for so little I may as well get going and learn on that for now.
I’m actually really excited to get going as even in analog we got a lot of joy seeing our train potter around the garden. So digital even basic will be a great improvement particularly with carriage lights working better.
So I have a chap who has a decoder 55021 that may be a good start. And although it won’t do sound I can look at that later. It’s £85 not sure if that’s a good price as I couldn’t see any others on line.
Love your screen point that’s made my mind up thanks

 

[pugwash]

I’m actually really excited to get going as even in analog we got a lot of joy seeing our train potter around the garden.

Yep.

 

[walkerart]

on the MTS2 problems, it can do either:
14 speed steps and a 23 locomotives limit numbered 0-22 with 0 being the analogue locomotive.
or
128 speed steps, long locomotive addresses (up to 9999) but directional lighting doesn't work.

As far as I as I can see you planning to have 2 locomotives and the one that you do have doesn't have lights, so it probably won't affect you much if at all.

This is interesting. Yes my current loco does have directional light one on the tender for reverse headlight and one on the front
Plus a footplate can light.
So are we saying I won’t be able to control the lights?
I think earlier in the thread it was said I should be able to. ?
I’m on my phone will look on the lap top when I get back it’s easier.

Oh you mentioned 14 speed steps is enough for a gradual start and braking stop?
There is no way I would need 23 locos my pockets aren’t that deep
So yes two working mostly if I can automate a passing loop maybe a third shunting but that’s a long way off.

Got a great detailed response earlier from Phil I think again I will respond later.

The sound thing is a shame but it’s expensive at about £200 so I can get to this later and I believe add a seperate sound decoder?

Not clear how many inputs come from an LGB or Massmoth decoder as of yet but the boys have cleared up which port does what on the board in the loco.
Here’s a silly question
The ports are like plugs do the wires on the decoders have the male part to push in and are the labeled as to which is which?

So far a LGB 55021 is with my local train dealer but I’ve not seen it so I don’t know. Also I’ve not agreed to fit yet as I wanted to ask you lovely folk which was better. I believe masmoth are also good but I’ve not looked up a model part number for one, or which is the best value.
I can’t thank you all enough for the help since I joined I really feel I’ve learnt a fair bit this weekend.

 

[pugwash]

I believe masmoth are also good but I’ve not looked up a model part number for one, or which is the best value.

You could ask @muns as he was/is a dealer in all things Massoth.

 

[walkerart]

You could ask @muns as he was/is a dealer in all things Massoth.

Ok thanks Pugwash... I assume I just click on his link from your mail.
Hey is worth going to Llangollen garden railway show 7th June?
I’m guessing it’s good but probably they try to sell you the all singing bits not find solutions.
I fancy it though.

 

[walkerart]

You could ask @muns as he was/is a dealer in all things Massoth.

Ok thanks I have sent Muns a message.... is there a way to connect him to this thread to help him see.

 

[walkerart]

Google is your friend..

I think you need to download the LGB 55021 manual (or Massoth equivalent)..
View attachment 341416
The pairs of pins on the right above are for 'LF' and 'LR'. - The top ones are decoder + which is the common return under DCC.
The 'F1' pin in the centre of the decoder would be used for smoke.

Be aware, that by default, All function outputs will be at full track voltage.
There are CV's which you need to set to lower the voltage for 5V bulbs and your smoke unit.

PhilP.

Oh so this is the decoder pins... which push straight in to my loco board.?
Ok starting to get this.
So D+ common return. Is D- the negative to D+
May I ask M- and M+ are also T- and T+ ?

Sorry

So with the need to set a lower voltage for the smoke unit and directional lights..... is that done in programming when it first goes in?
Also done via a “cv” ?

Hey PhilP this is great. I will respond to your earlier message sorry I’ve been away on just the phone it’s not as good.

I’m thinking of leaving sound for now as I believe I can add another decoder later unless you suggest getting a decoder with sound feed now to activate later.

Hope you have had a good Easter weekend. Maybe running your railway.

Chris

 

[walkerart]

Oh so this is the decoder pins... which push straight in to my loco board.?
Ok starting to get this.
So D+ common return. Is D- the negative to D+
May I ask M- and M+ are also T- and T+ ?

Sorry

So with the need to set a lower voltage for the smoke unit and directional lights..... is that done in programming when it first goes in?
Also done via a “cv” ?

Hey PhilP this is great. I will respond to your earlier message sorry I’ve been away on just the phone it’s not as good.

I’m thinking of leaving sound for now as I believe I can add another decoder later unless you suggest getting a decoder with sound feed now to activate later.

Hope you have had a good Easter weekend. Maybe running your railway.

Chris

Oh also is that what the back EMF does ? As I believe 55021 has this back EMF function which it says helps on dirty tracks?

 

[PhilP]

M+, M- Motor 'plus' and Motor 'minus'.
T+! T Track 'positive' and Track 'negative'. - But it doesn't matter which way round these two go..

The 55021 decoder (and Massoth equivalent) has pins on the board, so it just plugs-in to the loco. - You would de-solder (or snip-off, close to the board).
Then you 'open' that set of DIP switches. - Dual Inline Package = DIP.

We love our TLA's! - Three Letter Acronyms.

You will probably enjoy the 'buzz' of the Llangollen show, and there is the Llangollen Railway, as well.

I will be there trading (RC Trains) so if you do go, fight your way through the scrum, and say 'hello'.


PhilP.