LGB/Marklin new stock with Marklin decoder - ?problems?

I understand the business case for embracing the new technologies, and that backwards-compatibility and support for legacy systems can only reach so far... however our trains are not nearly-disposable items like the current state of the computer industry.
So, to be clear..... those of us who have a LOT of locos with Massoth/older LGB decoders will still be able to operate all of these if we should, at any point, decide to buy a CS2?
Does that include even the earliest LGB types such as locos with 55020 (Lenz) decoders, and ones with old serial-type factory digital sound boards?

Is there still any facility to run a single analogue loco under a CS2 system, as with the old MTS address "0"?

http://dilbert.com/strip/2006-12-08

:)

Jon.
 
I couldn't agree more with regards to advancements in control technology recent. However it does seem short sighted to not allow your decoders and command stations to be fully backwards compatible.
ESU manage to do it and as they developed the MFX protocol for Marklin it would appear to be a choice on their part for whatever reason
 
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Zerogee said:
I understand the business case for embracing the new technologies, and that backwards-compatibility and support for legacy systems can only reach so far... however our trains are not nearly-disposable items like the current state of the computer industry.
So, to be clear..... those of us who have a LOT of locos with Massoth/older LGB decoders will still be able to operate all of these if we should, at any point, decide to buy a CS2?
Does that include even the earliest LGB types such as locos with 55020 (Lenz) decoders, and ones with old serial-type factory digital sound boards?

Is there still any facility to run a single analogue loco under a CS2 system, as with the old MTS address "0"?

http://dilbert.com/strip/2006-12-08

:)

Jon.
Click to expand...
Hi Jon,

Sadly backward compatibility only goes so far and unfortunately the old 55020 is not compatible. I am not sure about old serial-type factory digital sound boards. If you have one we can try it out next year!!!!

Unfortunately there is no facility on the CS2 to run a single analogue loco as per the MTS address 0

Regards

Martin
 
MTheStrong said:
Hi Jon,

Sadly backward compatibility only goes so far and unfortunately the old 55020 is not compatible. I am not sure about old serial-type factory digital sound boards. If you have one we can try it out next year!!!!

Unfortunately there is no facility on the CS2 to run a single analogue loco as per the MTS address 0

Regards

Martin
Click to expand...

Thanks Martin - when you say that a 55020-chipped loco is not compatible, do you mean it just can't be PROGRAMMED on the CS2 (so if you still had an alternative programmer, eg a Sprog, you'd be OK), or can you not even drive a 55020-chipped loco on a CS2-controlled layout?

Re the sound boards question, I have a DR Mallet with an old-type serial digital sound board (factory installed) but a modern XL driving decoder, so yes - maybe we can try it sometime and see what happens!

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
Thanks Martin - when you say that a 55020-chipped loco is not compatible, do you mean it just can't be PROGRAMMED on the CS2 (so if you still had an alternative programmer, eg a Sprog, you'd be OK), or can you not even drive a 55020-chipped loco on a CS2-controlled layout?

Re the sound boards question, I have a DR Mallet with an old-type serial digital sound board (factory installed) but a modern XL driving decoder, so yes - maybe we can try it sometime and see what happens!

Jon.
Click to expand...
Hi John,

No you cannot drive a 55020 using the CS2.

Regards

Martin
 
Hmmmmm.... OK, thanks again Martin.

Up to this point I was prepared to give Marklin the benefit of the doubt, and would accept the programming difficulties as being too far back down the legacy route. But if it's a matter of not being able to run a loco at all, I'd say that is a step too far and will upset quite a lot of serious LGB collectors..... :oops:

I can see Massoth selling quite a few more L decoders as people are effectively forced to upgrade their early-Noughties built LGB MTS locos.

I guess only time will tell as to whether they have done the "right" thing or not, commercially and ethically - though I suspect they will simply ignore individual complaints.

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
Hmmmmm.... OK, thanks again Martin.

Up to this point I was prepared to give Marklin the benefit of the doubt, and would accept the programming difficulties as being too far back down the legacy route. But if it's a matter of not being able to run a loco at all, I'd say that is a step too far and will upset quite a lot of serious LGB collectors..... :oops:

I can see Massoth selling quite a few more L decoders as people are effectively forced to upgrade their early-Noughties built LGB MTS locos.

I guess only time will tell as to whether they have done the "right" thing or not, commercially and ethically - though I suspect they will simply ignore individual complaints.

Jon.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there are many business examples of where legacy products cease to be compatible with the latest technology. For example Windows XP users cannot run the latest office suite of programs. Whilst we may not agree with the ethics of this the reality is that there is a cost.

Another point to take into consideration is that Massoth is no longer the preferred electronics supplier to Marklin. The majority of electronics in the MTS range was supplied by Massoth. You also need to look at the direction German electronics for model railways is going. It would appear that the preferred route is for a central station to be connected to a WLAN and for a mobile telephone or tablet to be used to control locos and other railway equipment. You might want to have a look at the ESU Mobile Control II as an example of where things are heading.

Regards

Martin
 
I forgot to mention that I am in a similar position to you in that I have a few locos that are either chipped with the 55020 or are unchipped. My solution, perhaps, only temporary, is to run them with my old MTS equipment which remains perfectly usable. This is not ideal for obvious reasons. If things become really desperate I can also revert to analogue!!!

After note: I have just checked and I no longer have any locos chipped with the 55020
 
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MTheStrong said:
Hi John,

No you cannot drive a 55020 using the CS2.

Regards

Martin
Click to expand...


First time I've been on here for ages.

I haven't read through all of this thread and maybe the answer is buried somewhere way back.

Please can someone explain to me what is different about a 55020 that means it cannot be driven by the CS2, while most other DCC decoders can?

If, as Jon says, the decoder has already been programmed, and the CS2 is configured with the address and the fact that the loco is DCC then why will it not work?

Sorry if I am being dim.
 
On a CS2 only layout:

Analogue loco on '0'. NO.
Older 55020 decoder equipped loco's. NO.
Serial pulse string (older LGB sound-equipped loco's). NO.
Pre-MTS II (including MTS II) equipped loco's). NO.

'Problems' with addressing, and some of the 'strange' effects when trying to program MFX-equipped loco's have work-arounds, and most of the 'main-stream' things you would want to do, are still available to those with DCC equipment.

Whether a 'bare' MFX decoder will become available, and what will be required to load sounds into it, if it does, has yet to be clarified.

Martin's comment about the lack of a 'wireless throttle' (a la Navigator) a very valid.. The CS2 requires more cabling tying it to a location. It is not even considered shower-proof. To make it 'wireless', requires you to have a wireless access point (can setup your Internet router, if you are tech-savvy enough), and a 'smart-phone' to act as the wireless throttle... See what happens if someone rings you whilst performing a delicate shunting manoeuvre!
A Navigator will also quite often survive a drop onto the floor. - Even a concrete path. - Anyone offering to try this with a CS2??
 
PhilP said:
On a CS2 only layout:

Analogue loco on '0'. NO.
Older 55020 decoder equipped loco's. NO.
Serial pulse string (older LGB sound-equipped loco's). NO.
Pre-MTS II (including MTS II) equipped loco's). NO.

'Problems' with addressing, and some of the 'strange' effects when trying to program MFX-equipped loco's have work-arounds, and most of the 'main-stream' things you would want to do, are still available to those with DCC equipment.

Whether a 'bare' MFX decoder will become available, and what will be required to load sounds into it, if it does, has yet to be clarified.

Martin's comment about the lack of a 'wireless throttle' (a la Navigator) a very valid.. The CS2 requires more cabling tying it to a location. It is not even considered shower-proof. To make it 'wireless', requires you to have a wireless access point (can setup your Internet router, if you are tech-savvy enough), and a 'smart-phone' to act as the wireless throttle... See what happens if someone rings you whilst performing a delicate shunting manoeuvre!
A Navigator will also quite often survive a drop onto the floor. - Even a concrete path. - Anyone offering to try this with a CS2??
Click to expand...

Well I understand that analogue locos and old MTS specific serial functions are not supported. I also understand that it may not be possible to program all DCC decoders, but I have not seen an explanation as to why some pre programed DCC decoders can be driven with the CS2 but others cannot. Is it perhaps that 14 speed steps are not supported by the CS2? I would like a clear explanation please.
 
Cliff George said:
Well I understand that analogue locos and old MTS specific serial functions are not supported. I also understand that it may not be possible to program all DCC decoders, but I have not seen an explanation as to why some pre programed DCC decoders can be driven with the CS2 but others cannot. Is it perhaps that 14 speed steps are not supported by the CS2? I would like a clear explanation please.
Click to expand...
A search of the Marklin forums shows that the Mfx standard is 128 speed steps and by selecting Motorola Mode 27/28 speed steps can also be used. It would appear that decoders using 14 speed steps only, which includes some earlier MTS integrated boards, are not supported.
 
Cliff George said:
Well I understand that analogue locos and old MTS specific serial functions are not supported. I also understand that it may not be possible to program all DCC decoders, but I have not seen an explanation as to why some pre programed DCC decoders can be driven with the CS2 but others cannot. Is it perhaps that 14 speed steps are not supported by the CS2? I would like a clear explanation please.
Click to expand...

The 55020 is very old technology, and based on the Lenz system..
I suppose you could say it 'talks' MTS I..
Each iteration of the MTS system has added features, and built on what went before. - Also possibly becoming more 'NMRA compliant' in the process..

The CS2 does not support pre-MTS III equipment, or serial commands.

I suppose an analogy would be a Saxon, and a modern 'Briton' talking 'English' to each other! ;)
 
shropshire lad said:
A search of the Marklin forums shows that the Mfx standard is 128 speed steps and by selecting Motorola Mode 27/28 speed steps can also be used. It would appear that decoders using 14 speed steps only, which includes some earlier MTS integrated boards, are not supported.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation.

I would have though it would be relatively easy for Marklin to add support for 14 speed steps when a DCC decoder is configured into the CS2. Seems very short sighted not to support it. Probably a software/firmware upgrade could fix this issue
 
The 55020 can be set to 28 speed-steps.. At least, according to the (LGB) manual I have for it!
 
PhilP said:
The 55020 is very old technology, and based on the Lenz system..
I suppose you could say it 'talks' MTS I..
Each iteration of the MTS system has added features, and built on what went before. - Also possibly becoming more 'NMRA compliant' in the process..

The CS2 does not support pre-MTS III equipment, or serial commands.

I suppose an analogy would be a Saxon, and a modern 'Briton' talking 'English' to each other! ;)
Click to expand...

Well aside from the serial functions MTS I (and MTS II, MTS III) are all based on the NMRA DCC standards and thus should work with any DCC command station. The messages that get sent by command stations to the DCC decoders are different in 14 steps mode as to 28/128 speed step modes so it seems that it is the 14 speed step messages that Marklin have not implemented in their CS2.
 
PhilP said:
The 55020 can be set to 28 speed-steps.. At least, according to the (LGB) manual I have for it!
Click to expand...

Good point. I don't have any 55020 but use 28 speed steps in all of my MTS decoders. The only exception is a track cleaner that will only work in 14 step mode.

Maybe it would be possible to use 55020 with the CS2 if it were switched to 28 speed steps?
 
Cliff George said:
Good point. I don't have any 55020 but use 28 speed steps in all of my MTS decoders. The only exception is a track cleaner that will only work in 14 step mode.

Maybe it would be possible to use 55020 with the CS2 if it were switched to 28 speed steps?
Click to expand...

Possibly.. - But I think doubtful..
Another 'feature' of the 55020 is the motor frequency is very low, so you can hear the motor 'buzzing'..
Not sure if I have a 55020 in the 'bits' box.. BUT, I would not (at this time) give a CS2 house-room if I were gifted it.
 
PhilP said:
BUT, I would not (at this time) give a CS2 house-room if I were gifted it.
Click to expand...

Neither would I.

PhilP said:
Another 'feature' of the 55020 is the motor frequency is very low, so you can hear the motor 'buzzing'..
Click to expand...

While this is true. The motor frequency has no affect on the message set sent from the command station and so should not be a factor in 55020 not working with the CS2.
 
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