LGB/Marklin new stock with Marklin decoder - ?problems?

Can you run the loco under analogue?

Can you run the loco using a DCC system on address 3?

Can you write a value of '2' to CV50? - if you read it back, it might read-back as '3'
After making this change, lift one side of the loco off the track to make sure you 'turn it off, and back on again'.
 
Due to a storm, my running track is not working at present. There are downed metal wires lying across the track! So I haven't been able to try running the engine. However, I did make some progress today. I have a Massoth Navigator and a Massoth 1200Z. So I connected the latter to my programming track and was then able to read the CVs one at a time, on the Navigator. A bit tedious, but I was able to get a value from all the CVs for which the loco manual gives default values. When I compared what I read with what the values were supposed to be, a pattern emerged. It looks as if every CV has had the rightmost 3 bits set to 1. So, if the value should have been 0-7, it shows as 7. If the value should have been higher than 7 then it shows as 0-7 higher than the default [depending on whether the 1st 3 bits should have been 0 or 1]. So, for example, a correct value of 64 shows up as 71. A correct value of 128 shows up as 135. However a correct value of 17 would show as 23. In particular CV 50 was supposed to be 10, but shows up as 15 - ie should have had bits 2 & 4 set to 1, but actually has bits 1-4 set to 1.
I have no idea why the 1st 3 bits have been overwritten in this way, but I shall be communicating with LGB/Marklin to ask them!

Unfortunately the Navigator doesn't seem able to write the CVs, it just reads them. It is supposed to, it just doesn't. I also tried the read/write on another loco. The read produced the correct values of the CVs for that loco - so the 3 bits set to 1 is not an artefact of the Navigator, it is actually what is on the faulty decoder. However, I was not able to write from the Navigator to the other engine either - even though I can write to it using my PC interface. I will need to find out why the Navigator doesn't write CVs. Maybe it doesn't do this on the prog track - the manual says it is a POM function. However, this is a problem for another day.

I have also downloaded and installed the Massoth Service Tool - which is essentially a substitute for the Stellwerks programming tools. This is also supposed to write CVs, so I will try that. The only problem is that it requires a template for the decoder, if you want to update more than one CV at a time, and I doubt there is one available for the Marklin decoder. Actually, I found, from CV8 in the loco doco, that the product code for this decoder is 131 - which is TRIX. I thought they made HO stuff, which I guess is where Marklin come from.

There are over 120 CVs for this loco with documented default values, and many others besides - almost all of which are wrong. I will be discussing with LGB the best way to fix this. Updating them one at a time is not my preferred option! However, I don't particularly want to send the thing back to Germany to be fixed either - unless they pay for the shipping. It is under warranty.
 
You may well get incorrect answers when reading CV's. - I have seen this..

Read CV 50, try writing '2' to it.. This is DCC 'on', analogue and MFX 'off'.. Then read it back. - Most times you get '3' back.. It appears to not let you turn analogue off.
You should be able to set CV 1 to a low address value by programming that CV only.. Two caveats:
1. You can NOT use the 'set address' function on the Navigator. - This tries to write to CV 29 (and 49, from memory) as well, and fails.
2. If the high address bit is set in CV 29, then it won't work. - If CV29 has a value greater than 32, then subtract 32 from it and write in that value.

The only other thing, I suggest (if possible) you turn off sound and lights on the loco whilst programming. - Not sure which loco we are talking about, but the combined current-draw as it attempts to write, then 'kick' the motor, may be too much for the programming system.

HTH
PhilP.
 
Well I have made some progress with this and thought it might be helpful to pass on some of what I have found out.

Firstly, I sent a detailed message to Marklin/LGB support, explaining the problem and including a list of all the apparently faulty CVs. So far, I have not had any response from them - except an automated e-mail response saying it might take a while to get a response! Well that wasn't wrong.

I then contacted the shop in Germany from whom I bought the loco. They gave me a very useful bit of advice, which eventually led to what appears to be a solution.

It would seem that the first thing you have to do with these MFX decoder-fitted locos is to run them on the main track , using the default factory loco address 3. Apparently, the decoder then 'recognises' it is communicating with a DCC system, rather than MFX. Only after doing this initial run can the loco be put on the programming track for decoder editing. It would appear that this short run somehow initialises the decoder for DCC use. It's a pity there is nothing in the loco manual to point this out.

Anyway, I tried this out using my Massoth 1200Z/ Navigator combination and low and behold, the loco ran, using address 3, and I was able to control the sound and lighting functions.

I had ordered a SPROG 3, in the hope this might have a template for the Marklin decoder. This arrived recently, and I got it set up and working on my programming track today.

It was not able to recognise the decoder automatically, but it was able to read it using the NRMA default template. [Although it wouldn't write back to the decoder from this template.] However, I was able to use the single CV programmer to read CV 1 and CV 50.

I could then successfully change CV 1 to the new loco address [22] and modified CV 50 to remove the MFX function [changed it from 10 to 2]

I was able to use the single CV programmer to update the decoder with these new values.

I later set up the old Stellwerks/55045 combo [after unplugging the SPROG power supply!] and it too could now read the decoder. PROGRESS!

I checked some of the other CVs, and all the spurious 111s seem to have gone.

It would seem that either the initial running of the loco or the changing of CV 50 [I suspect the former] clears out all the spurious 111s.

Why Marklin has done this I have no idea, but you would think they could at least document what they have done and how to fix it. Perhaps they assume that people would always run their new loco at least once, using the default address, before trying to program the decoder. Unfortunately, I was not one of those
people!

All I have to do now is test the reprogrammed loco on the main track - which will have to wait for a day with clear weather. I am fairly confident that it should now work.

I noted in the latest issue of the LGB Depesche magazine that Marklin are likely to be putting a lot more of these MFX decoders in their new locos. They claim that standardising on 1 technology will keep down costs [as opposed to having DCC only decoders as well]. All well and good, but they also need to explain how to use them in the different environments. We don't all have or want Marklin central stations!!
 
Thanks, NCS, a VERY interesting and detailed response! :)

If this solution works for other folks (and of course no reason why it shouldn't) then I think your efforts in researching it may have saved a lot of people a great deal of hassle in the future.....

Perhaps once a few others have tried this out and confirmed that it indeed works in most cases, this information should be posted somewhere on the forum as a "sticky" so that anyone can easily find it in the future?

Jon.
 
Thanks NCS. Are these LGB/Marklin decoders basically Massoth decoders rebranded? I have one in a LGB/Marklin V100 and it looks like a Massoth XL-M1 but it has sound as well. Reason I'm asking is that maybe Massoth have better documentation than LGB/Marklin provide? I recently bought an LGB/Marklin 0-4-4-0T (DC) and the documentation compared to old LGB is not very good. More languages but less info.
 
I'm pretty sure that Massoth are not building much, if anything, directly for LGB anymore.... the XLS-M1 is a purely Massoth product designed to fit the new M/LGB socket, but I think the old link between Massoth and LGB pretty much ended with the Marklin takeover.

Jon.
 
idlemarvel said:
Thanks NCS. Are these LGB/Marklin decoders basically Massoth decoders rebranded? .
Click to expand...

So far as I know, the answer to this is probably no.
These are TRIX decoders - which is another Marklin subsidiary. They have the TRIX product code number in CV 8.
I think these are a Marklin 'innovation' to fit in with their central station technology. Someone else here may know for sure where the technology comes from, but I suspect it may be from Marklin's smaller scale models, originally. Whether they have somehow grafted this onto Massoth decoder technology, I cannot say.

There is an article on page 30 of issue #2 2016 of the LGB/Marklin user magazine, that indicates how this 'modern' MFX decoder technology can be retro-fitted into older LGB models using a recently released LGB 55529 interface connector/adapter. There is even a photo of a 28pin decoder, which I assume to be the TRIX [I haven't opened up my loco to look at mine]
There is a link to the overview of the magazine here, but I couldn't find an online copy of its contents. http://www.lgb.com/en/service/publications/lgb_depesche.html
Allaboutlgb.com has a page [http://www.allaboutlgb.com/lgb decoder installation.html ] that describes the various interfaces to decoders in LGB locos. It includes the comment "In 2014 LGB introduced a new 28-pin decoder interface which they represented in their literature by symbol "6". The interface, sometimes referred to as the LGB/Märklin Gauge 1 interface, is plug-and-play compatible with the LGB® 55028 decoder, the Massoth eMOTION XL-M1 decoder, and the Massoth eMOTION XLS-M1 sound decoder."
This interface would appear to be the LGB 55529. A quick search shows this interface on sale in several well known vendors. This Amazon page even has a picture:https://www.amazon.com/LGB-L55529-55529/dp/B00JQPRZ0I

Putting all this together, I would surmise that the Marklin decoder is a completely new type, which has to be retrofitted to LGB locos. The advent of the 55529 interface in 2014 probably made it practical to add these to LGB locos, without changing the basic LGB architecture. If you have looked at your MFX decoder, you might be able to see whether it is connected via one of these 55529 interfaces. [or maybe this is only used to convert older LGB locos to MFX?]
 
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That's right, these are Trix/Marklin decoders nothing to do with Massoth. There is information about the MFX decoder family on the 'net. I think these same decoders have been used with Marklin O and 1 gauge models.
 
Well, a bit of good news. I was able to put the LGB 24741 on the main track this afternoon. It worked just fine with address 22, as I programmed it for yesterday. Having said this, I will make one comment on this loco. The sound is rather quiet, compared to my other LGB locos. There is no knob to adjust the volume. This has to be done via CVs. When I checked the volume CV for the bell sound yesterday it was set to 255, which I assumed was max volume. The bell is very hard to hear, even when the loco is sitting a few feet away. The whistle is better. The announcement is OK and the chuff sounds are reasonable, but still a bit muted. I guess they must have a rather small speaker in this model! It is only a small model - a 2:6:0, so maybe they figure it should be quieter. Let's hope if they start putting these MFX sound modules in the larger locos, the sound is also louder.
 
NCS from Qbyn said:
Well, a bit of good news. I was able to put the LGB 24741 on the main track this afternoon. It worked just fine with address 22, as I programmed it for yesterday. Having said this, I will make one comment on this loco. The sound is rather quiet, compared to my other LGB locos. There is no knob to adjust the volume. This has to be done via CVs. When I checked the volume CV for the bell sound yesterday it was set to 255, which I assumed was max volume. The bell is very hard to hear, even when the loco is sitting a few feet away. The whistle is better. The announcement is OK and the chuff sounds are reasonable, but still a bit muted. I guess they must have a rather small speaker in this model! It is only a small model - a 2:6:0, so maybe they figure it should be quieter. Let's hope if they start putting these MFX sound modules in the larger locos, the sound is also louder.
Click to expand...

Is there not also a CV for overall volume, as well as for individual effects?? - Might be worth a look, if you haven't already..
 
Yes, there is a CV called "total Volume", but that has a factory default value of 255 as well. I will have to put the loco back on the test track to make sure it is actually set to that value.

Update: Just checked the total volume CV. It is set to 255. I guess it is just a quiet machine!!
 
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NCS from Qbyn said:
Yes, there is a CV called "total Volume", but that has a factory default value of 255 as well. I will have to put the loco back on the test track to make sure it is actually set to that value.
Click to expand...

Shirley that would be the highest setting value (you would think).. 'Custom and practice' tends to be to set this to half to two-thirds total volume by default, but hey! We are talking Marklin here!! :rolleyes:
 
A value of 255 in the Total Volume CV is the value used when an external manual volume control is fitted.... are you SURE there isn't a volume control anywhere on the loco? LGB usually fit them on sound-equipped locos, either somewhere under the chassis or hidden under something (under a removable water fill hatch on a side tank is a favourite spot for them). If you want to set the volume via CV, it needs to be a value other than 255 - in my experience if you want a quiet setting then use around 30, if you want to crank it up for outdoors then something in the 60-65 range. This is from experience with Massoth decoders (S/LS/XLS) and older LGB factory sound units, so of course the new MFX system (of which I have no experience yet) MIGHT be different.....

If you total volume CV is set at 255 then I would put money (a small amount!) on there being a manual volume control somewhere, and it is probably turned down to a low level at the moment.

Jon.
 
Well. I have looked all over this loco. I managed to open the front of the boiler, but there was just what initially looked like a speaker grill inside. I removed the steam dome, but there was nothing underneath. I removed a couple of covers on the side tanks - again nothing. There is nothing underneath the loco and the only thing in the cab is the multi-function switch. There is no reference in the manual to how the volume is adjusted - it just says it can be. The only other reference to volume is in the rather extensive CV function list. I therefore suspect the CVs are the only way to adjust volume.
However, I take your point about the 255 values. I may try setting them to a slightly lower value and see if this makes any difference.
 
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There was another thread recently where someone was saying the sound was too quiet, and numerous suggestions were made for making it louder, apart from the CV settings you have uncovered, including checking the impedance of the speaker. I will see if I can find it if you can't.
 
The aforementioned thread did pop up again yesterday, title "Esu Loksound V4 sound volume low". Many suggestions in there.
 
Dave Thanks, I read through that thread this afternoon and noted that the main problem there seemed to be that the loco was being tested on low current, and the problem was resolved when the loco was placed on the main track. That is not my problem. However, the very last post - from KeithT - may be a clue. He said he had seen that some newer sound cards may be deliberately produced with low sound volumes. I have asked him if he can recall which particular cards/locos were being referred to.
 
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