Important notice re: certifying live-steam gas tanks testing.
- Thread starter tac foley
- Start date
Of course it's all advisory, until some 'Jobsworth' insists on applying it to the letter. You won't run at my M.E.S. unless you comply totally. It's all very well until there's a claim, justified or not, then the brown and smelly hits the whirly thing and you have to PROVE you've done It by the book.
Sadly, the Health and Safety Executive think differently.
Quote -
In the notes from the recent boiler seminar on the new regulations, Walker Midgley - insurers for the Southern Federation of Model Engineers, and insurers for my 7 1/4" ELECTRICALLY-driven 'Harlech Castle' - have stated that boilers need a current certificate.
In the gas tank new code:
1.2 The Health and Safety Executive considers it good practice for persons using pressure equipment to provide the same level of health and safety protection as they would if they were duty holders under the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000 (PSSR). To aid this process, this Code has therefore been prepared using the principles of the PSSR. Where applicable this Code complies with PSSR 2000.
1.5 When operating models where the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 applies, compliance with the requirements of PSSR shall be necessary. The PSSR require that this test Code is used in conjunction with the applicable Written Scheme of Examination certificate.
Seems as clear as mud to me.
tac
Quote -
In the notes from the recent boiler seminar on the new regulations, Walker Midgley - insurers for the Southern Federation of Model Engineers, and insurers for my 7 1/4" ELECTRICALLY-driven 'Harlech Castle' - have stated that boilers need a current certificate.
In the gas tank new code:
1.2 The Health and Safety Executive considers it good practice for persons using pressure equipment to provide the same level of health and safety protection as they would if they were duty holders under the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000 (PSSR). To aid this process, this Code has therefore been prepared using the principles of the PSSR. Where applicable this Code complies with PSSR 2000.
1.5 When operating models where the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 applies, compliance with the requirements of PSSR shall be necessary. The PSSR require that this test Code is used in conjunction with the applicable Written Scheme of Examination certificate.
Seems as clear as mud to me.
tac
Seems you are all still missing the point and trying to make out they 7,1/4 models they are not I cannot find any of the so called legislation that applies to the size of gas tanks used and the size of boilers used !! Its just advisory !!!! FOR GOODNESS SAKE CHAPS< LADIES CALM DOWN !!! Just go and enjoy your garden railways its fun not serious !!!! ITS SUPPOSED TO RELAXING and ENLIGHTENMENT !!!!! OH and I suggest those of you who are 16mmm association members next AGM sort this out get rid of the scaremongers before they kill the hobby !!!!!!
Whilst I agree that is how it should be; go along to the MELG (Model Engineers Liaison Group) and tell them that! They are not listening.
Is there an online source for this? If so, could you post it please?
"considers it good practice" is not the same as "mandatory" or similar.
HASAW1974 says "An Act to make further provision for securing the health, safety and welfare of persons at work, for protecting others against risks to health or safety in connection with the activities of persons at work, for controlling the keeping and use and preventing the unlawful acquisition, possession and use of dangerous substances, and for controlling certain emissions into the atmosphere; to make further provision with respect to the employment medical advisory service; to amend the law relating to building regulations, and the Building (Scotland) Act 1959; and for connected purposes.". That phrase "at work" is, I feel, relevant here. Neither I or my guests are "at work" when playing trains in the garden.
@Rhos Helyg LM - with respect, and by your own admission, you do not attend shows/displays where the public has close access to live steam models, at least, with your own models. My home ride-on 7 1/4" gauge society is insured by Walker-Midgely, as I am under a separate cover that looks after me if and when my own electrically-driven locomotive is operated elsewhere. Walker-Midgley require test certificates for any and all pressure vessels operated under their policies, regardless of size/capacity I'm also in the 16mm Association and the G1MRA and G Scale Society - all of whom has insurance cover by virtue of membership, but no little piece of paper that actually documents and certifies the safety of my boiler or gas tank apart from my own self-testing certificates. Now it seems that they are worthless, since they only certify that the safety valve operates at the correct release pressure, and that the pressure gauge operates, not that the boiler safely withstands twice the working pressure, or whatever it is the the gas tank is required to withstand safely. Hence the necessity for an 'uninterested' and independent boiler tester.
It can be construed that while I am operating my models at an open day, I am performing unpaid 'work' as a public service in doing so, and therefore subject to the H&SA, the same as the old guy cranking the little childrens' carousel.
My home society is now grappling with the interpretation of the terms of the insurance cover with regard to our little steam locomotives, of which there are a good number.
I am awash with trying to comprehend/interpret the new documentation.
Maybe this is all a storm in a teacup. However, reading the two documents - boiler and gas tank testing - tells me otherwise.
I note, with great interest, that nobody from any of the societies or manufacturers has yet chimed in with THEIR take on all this.
I guess that we'll have to wait.
tac
It can be construed that while I am operating my models at an open day, I am performing unpaid 'work' as a public service in doing so, and therefore subject to the H&SA, the same as the old guy cranking the little childrens' carousel.
My home society is now grappling with the interpretation of the terms of the insurance cover with regard to our little steam locomotives, of which there are a good number.
I am awash with trying to comprehend/interpret the new documentation.
Maybe this is all a storm in a teacup. However, reading the two documents - boiler and gas tank testing - tells me otherwise.
I note, with great interest, that nobody from any of the societies or manufacturers has yet chimed in with THEIR take on all this.
I guess that we'll have to wait.
tac
What we have is an Approved code Of Practice (ACOP), and ACOP is guidance as is a lot of HSE "Policy", and enforcement by the regulatory body is very rare. However (there is always a however) if something goes wrong, then the regulatory body will want to know why the ACOp was not followed (even though it was not regulated).
Now that should clear things up - NOT
Now that should clear things up - NOT
Ah, the fog of war comes to mind..
What will decide this, will be the wording of new insurance policy documentation, and how the Societies decide to go (including policing at their events)..
We all have an (unwritten) duty of care to both ourselves and the public.
MOST H&S IS COMMON SENSE! What b*gg*rs things up is when people are hyper-sensitive to risk..
Look at the way you can wander almost anywhere at Didcot, compared with a railway that stops you walking on ballast, in case you trip!
What will decide this, will be the wording of new insurance policy documentation, and how the Societies decide to go (including policing at their events)..
We all have an (unwritten) duty of care to both ourselves and the public.
MOST H&S IS COMMON SENSE! What b*gg*rs things up is when people are hyper-sensitive to risk..
Look at the way you can wander almost anywhere at Didcot, compared with a railway that stops you walking on ballast, in case you trip!
Having had a quick look at the boiler test code 2018 volume 3 LPG tanks under 250 ml it states in section 2 that the purpose of the code only applies to tanks made of Brass or Copper, presumably tanks made of steel don't come under this code and are therefore exempt,???
To see the document go on to the 16mm association website look up go to shed notices go down to 5th April notice and click on insurance page, all the information regarding testing and what we are insured for is there.
Shaun
To see the document go on to the 16mm association website look up go to shed notices go down to 5th April notice and click on insurance page, all the information regarding testing and what we are insured for is there.
Shaun
I would suggest that steel tank are equally as vulnerable, due to possible corrosion from either inside or out. Certainly the requirements for steel or copper boiler differ for that reason.
Reading this topic as an outsider, that is I do not own or run a live steamer, have no desire to own or run a live steamer, I don't think you need gas or coal, this topic is generating enough hot air to boil water.
In my parallel universe one of my other hobbies is target shooting with air rifles. I have three pre-charged pnumatic rifles that are charged with breathable air from a divers bottle. I know some of you are divers and will know that a bottle used for diving must have a full internal inspection and pressure test every two years. A bottle not used for diving only needs to be tested every four or five years, cannot remember now which. As the only place I can get my bottle filled is a dive shop, they automatically assume I am a liar and refuse to refill my bottle unless it has been two year tested even though it has never been used for diving and is unlikely to ever be. Beuocracy, tel me about it.
David
In my parallel universe one of my other hobbies is target shooting with air rifles. I have three pre-charged pnumatic rifles that are charged with breathable air from a divers bottle. I know some of you are divers and will know that a bottle used for diving must have a full internal inspection and pressure test every two years. A bottle not used for diving only needs to be tested every four or five years, cannot remember now which. As the only place I can get my bottle filled is a dive shop, they automatically assume I am a liar and refuse to refill my bottle unless it has been two year tested even though it has never been used for diving and is unlikely to ever be. Beuocracy, tel me about it.
David
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The two year inspection test on divers bottle as opposed to the standard five year inspection and test is nothing to do with the fact it is a divers bottle, but the materal and manufacturing specification, being thinner and lighter than standard bottles.
Shaun, I concur with everything that you have written. However, what if we are asked by the show/site organiser to provide PROOF of this insurance in documentary form? I don't have the physical document that proves that, only a card that shows that I am a member of the organisation that insures me.
Again, like many people, I keep my own records of testing that my locomotives are raising steam without blowing up, releasing steam via the safety valves when reaching the manufacturer's stated working pressure, and showing that pressure on a working pressure gauge. What I don't do is a x1.5 and x2 hydraulic pressure test on the boiler. As we all know, we actually 'test' our models every time we run them, simply in order to run them.
I'm going to hold out for a definitive statement from either the insurance companies or the societies, or both.
Thanks to all of you for your patience and forebearing.
tac
Tac, for your 'certificate of club insurance', you apply to the club Secretary (or whoever deals with your club insurance), and they will provide you with a copy. That has been the case for many years, just no-one seems to know/bother (except me!). I had a standing order with my last club Sec to supply me with one as soon as they renewed.
I have no problem with my Society's own insurance - every time I sign in to the attendance book I become covered by it. It's having to provide proof of the insurance provided by membership of the various societies/associations of which I am a member that might cause a problem.
tac
Tac, are you sure you haven't missed the point of my post. If you wish to run at another site, under your club insurance, you only need to ask the Sec for a certificate copy. I dont take out my own public liabilty cover I use my club's, with a copy cert. One of the benefis of club membership.
I'm not a member of a club, I'm a member of a 7 1/4" NG society, the Fenland Light Railway of Ramsey Mereside, Cambs, whose insurance only covers me while I am on the Society's own site, since it is site-specific. If I go anywhere else to operate, as I frequently do, then I rely on the insurance cover provided by the G1MRA membership. When I'm operating a 16mm or G Scale train, then those insurances cover me. It's if I'm asked to PROVE it that the problem arises. Thankfully, at Mike's suggestion, I've downloaded the copy of Walker-Midgely's insurance policy for the G Scale Society - http://gscalesociety.com/downloads/ - if you ever need it.
I'm keeping a copy with every one of my locomotives from now on.
tac
I'm keeping a copy with every one of my locomotives from now on.
tac