Important notice re: certifying live-steam gas tanks testing.

[tac foley]

I was over at the BIG railway today and yakking generally when the Chairman came over and asked if I was aware of the new legislation coming into force VERY soon covering liquified gases and their containers - specifically those used on most model live-steamers in this country.

The documentation will be available for me to actually look at and report back here on Saturday, but right now it appears that in spite of the vast majority of our boilers coming under the 3 Bar/Litre figure that means that they are exempt from an authorised person carrying out an annual boiler testing, the gas tanks are not exempt, and will require annual certification by a similarly-qualified and neutral person. The 16mm Association publishes an on-line downloadable self-test certificate for its members to check their boilers, but AFAIK there is no readily-available self-administered gas tank test - after all, we are talking here of pressures up to 600 psi.

If anybody can add any clarification to this, I'd be grateful. As the owner of a few gas-fired live steamers, this whole thing is getting to be one of the reasons why some folks go back to track or battery power.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS

 

[PaulRhB]

So are they going to certificate the gas bottles you buy to fill them up too, I can't see that there's an existing problem with them. There was huge fuss over the boilers not long ago so I'd be wary of the wording as it will only affect using them at a show anyway. If you use it in your home you aren't really going to worry about it. Possibly at meets you would need to be careful who you invite, only well known friends who won't make an issue of it.

 

[tac foley]

The problem is, Paul, like many folks here, we DO operate our trains in the public domain - at least eight times a year and sometimes, if all the stars line up and we are neither in Canada nor USA, a couple more occasions.

This cactus in the rose bush is going to cause a deal of problems, IF our tiny gas tanks are included in the list from the Ubernannies. I'll zot over to see the Chairman tomorrow and borrow a copy of the documentation. Can't let this one go.

Best

tac

 

[Paul M]

Something else to worry about that I didn't need to worry about 2 minutes ago
Although having said that, I suppose there could be problems with badly maintained locos
​

 

[Rhos Helyg Loco Works]

Tied up with these new test codes (which can be found here https://www.16mm.org.uk/membership/members-information/insurance/) is the Shed Notice written by 16mm Association Chairman Alan Regan, which can be found here: https://www.16mm.org.uk/2018/04/05/small-boiler-and-lpg-tank-test-codes/

Alan has with Mark Rennie been involved in the formulation of the new test codes so he knows what he is writing about. Personally, I think the first sentence of the fifth paragraph is very relevant. It says "I’d like to stress again that following these codes is entirely voluntary.".

 

[PaulRhB]

As I suspected, it's the boiler hubbub all over again. Sensible to have it if showing under the auspices of the 16mm association to protect the association in event of a problem but not a draconian interference really

 

[PhilP]

Can anybody, hand on heart, scratch glass with the remains of a 'guz-bang'? - Not an 'I heard about..'

Has anybody seen the remains of a loco, in the flesh, after an incident?


I am just trying to get an idea of how many 'boiler / gas-tank bursts / explosions' we are talking about..


I would guess that your home insurance company would try to wriggle out of any claim??

 

[tac foley]

Thank you all for your timely information.

I've copied and printed all the relevant documentation.

tac
16mm Association #9507

 

[Rhos Helyg Loco Works]

Has anybody seen the remains of a loco, in the flesh, after an incident?

Yes, but only done deliberately as part of destructive test. The boiler blew up like a balloon until a boiler bush gave way at its soldered joint with a non-explosive release of steam.

I am just trying to get an idea of how many 'boiler / gas-tank bursts / explosions' we are talking about..

When speaking to the 16mm Association's insurers a few years ago I asked how many claims had ever been made. The answer was a round number less than one.

 

[dunnyrail]

Perspective is the important thing with all boilers and testing. If you let a firework off in your hand but do not enclose your fist you will get some burns, be accused if being an idiot but little other damage. However if you enclose that same firework in your fist you will be needeing help with your toilet for the rest of your life. Yes I was watching Armagedon the other night!

But the moral of this is that our boilers if they go willl go with a weep and a let off of steam somewhat slowly. Gas tanks may be another issue, but I feel again what is more likely would be that the seal in the filler will start to leak first thus giving a similar weep and let out of gas preasure.

In fact the only problems that I have had of late with either Boilers or Gas Tanks has been the need to replace Gas Filler Valves that would not allow Gassing the Tank, I always assume this to be down to the 0 ring being trashed.

 

[mike]

This is getting silly...there is no need or requirement by the insurance company used by both the 16mm or the g scale society for testing your gas tank.. compared to the boiler the gas tank is over engineered .the lighter you use to light the gas isn't made as well..do you test that before useing it.. do you test the refill can before use.. if the 16mm go down this path ..I think I can see a new advertising slogan for the g scale society..Home of common sense.

 

[TLR]

This is getting silly...there is no need or requirement by the insurance company used by both the 16mm or the g scale society for testing your gas tank.. compared to the boiler the gas tank is over engineered .the lighter you use to light the gas isn't made as well..do you test that before useing it.. do you test the refill can before use.. if the 16mm go down this path ..I think I can see a new advertising slogan for the g scale society..Home of common sense.

Quite agree Mike, another storm in a teacup blown up into a full scale tornado because somebody cherry picks phrases in a document.

Shaun

 

[PhilP]

Yes, but only done deliberately as part of destructive test. The boiler blew up like a balloon until a boiler bush gave way at its soldered joint with a non-explosive release of steam.

When speaking to the 16mm Association's insurers a few years ago I asked how many claims had ever been made. The answer was a round number less than one.

Thank you Tony,

This very much confirms my suspicions that it is a solution looking for a problem..

Now, The larger, ride-on scales, are a totally different kettle of fish! - But again, I would guess the number of incidents is very low?

 

[JimmyB]

after all, we are talking here of pressures up to 600 psi.

First I have been both a certified pressure vessel (6,000 psi) test and certification officer, and cryogenic vessel inspector, which included LPG.
Not sure where you get 600 psi from for LPG gas tanks, LPG is held in liquid suspension by virtue of pressure and temperature, most vessels are less than 350 psi, working pressure is around 250 psi, and for the gas cylinders for home use I understand the pressure is significant lower.

 

[G-force1]

The only added danger with a gas tank leak is the one of flame, IF there is an ignition source close enough. That much is real.

All this extra crepe about safety and the like is doing my nut, and one of the main reasons I voted 'OUT'. As pointed out above, the problems are so infinitesimal as to disappear over the horiizon, yet still some werrit-ass has to dig and dig 'til they find something then blow it up beyond recognition The problem is now that the 'mamby-pamby-follow-me-leaders' have been woken up they wont want to go back to sleep.

These things are as safe as they can be. Play/test on, and enjoy yourselves. I certainly intend to, and I won't be getting any gas tank, or boiler in this scale, tested, even if I do finish up playing/testing it on my own! (what's different there then? )

 

[PhilP]

When I used to dive, I had cold-drawn tanks regularly charged to 3000 psi..

I believe they were tested to 5000 psi, but I usually dropped them off to be charged and tested, so was never present.

Thinking about it now, makes one realise why the demand valve assembly was so very important, and expensive!

 

[JimmyB]

When I used to dive, I had cold-drawn tanks regularly charged to 3000 psi..

I believe they were tested to 5000 psi, but I usually dropped them off to be charged and tested, so was never present.

Thinking about it now, makes one realise why the demand valve assembly was so very important, and expensive!

Phil part of my job was the hydro-static testing of diving tanks, but its not just the pressure they are tested to, but the deformation of the vessel when the pressure is released, there is so much more than "seeing if the vessel goes bang".

 

[My45G]

I think self testing of boilers and gas tanks are generally a good idea although I do think the test and its document needs some modification, but that's another story.

Hydraulic tests of boilers and gas tanks only need to be done once at the point of manufacture and they are then valid for life.

However, two issues for me are about the new test codes are:

1. The codes no longer differentiate for locos under 3 bar/litres, despite the fact public liability insurance does not require any test or certification..

2. The codes do not differentiate between commercially manufactured boilers/tanks from the likes of Roundhouse and those that are homemade by individuals or of unknown origin.. I don't know why this simple distinction cannot be made. Roundhouse for example, has always tested its boilers and gas tanks at manufacture, they just didn't issue the certificate in the past, so many of my locos do not have a paper certificate, but none the less were tested at the time.

 

[tac foley]

First I have been both a certified pressure vessel (6,000 psi) test and certification officer, and cryogenic vessel inspector, which included LPG.
Not sure where you get 600 psi from for LPG gas tanks, LPG is held in liquid suspension by virtue of pressure and temperature, most vessels are less than 350 psi, working pressure is around 250 psi, and for the gas cylinders for home use I understand the pressure is significant lower.

I 'get' the note from Accucraft.com, when, due to a 'misunderstanding', a number of owners of the then-new NG/G16 Beyer-Garratt locomotive used HOT water in the tender well and PROPANE in the gas tanks instead of butane. The pressure/volume/temperature tables showed that at the point of rupture the tanks were trying to contain around 600psi. Accucraft instantly issued a safety advisory and replaced every gas tank free of charge. The new gas tanks are certified Remember that although here in the UK we don't get summer daytime temperatures in the hundred+ F, they are pretty common in the Southern states such as Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and so on where the explosive incidents took place.

Pouring boiling water onto a little gas tank, designed to contain butane, but filled with propane, is not a good thing, I'm sure you would agree.

tac

 

[tac foley]

This is getting silly...there is no need or requirement by the insurance company used by both the 16mm or the g scale society for testing your gas tank.. compared to the boiler the gas tank is over engineered .the lighter you use to light the gas isn't made as well..do you test that before useing it.. do you test the refill can before use.. if the 16mm go down this path ..I think I can see a new advertising slogan for the g scale society..Home of common sense.

It might be construed as silly, Mike, but it's a very serious question. The combined wit and wisdom of the Model Locomotive Group, the Southern Federation of Models Engineers, the 7 1/4" Gauge Society, the G1MRA, as well as the 16mm Association and a few others have bent their attention to this subject. As I pointed out earlier, I, and a number of others in our group, attend public venues numerous times in the year, where the public, often paying for the privilege, expect to see all kinds of steam models in operation, our portable-tracked layouts included.

The documentation IS there, and DOES include the mandatory testing of the gas tank at five-year intervals by removal from the loco and subsequent hydraulic testing and certification. It's all well and good for the 16mm Association to state in the text of their notice that all these measures are 'voluntary' - if the organiser of the show asks to see your gas tank certificate, and gets a blank look, you'll be wasting your time there. Your point about the can is also a good one - where is the individual test certificate for each and every individual can of gas currently in my possession? Or in the store where they are on sale?

This really is getting to be a PITA, that's for sure.

tac