Help recoding a DCC climax

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adverse camber

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I have an almost new Climax which came with a Bachmann factory installed DCC chip. Looked on arrival if it had never run. It ran fine on the default No 3 address for the loco number with the sound all working. I wanted to change the loc address but attempts to reprogram it on my Massoth system failed though it did continue to work with the No3 address.
A bit of reading suggested that this could happen with the Bachman’s chips and to try a different DCC system to reprogram it. A colleague at the train club has an NCE system and we used this (with a bit of fiddling it would only accept a double digit address so we settled for 16) to reprogram the chip and on a rolling road using the NCE system it all worked fine. When I got the loco home again it would not work at all. Frustration!
Any suggestions about how to get the loco programmed so that it will work on a massoth based system with a loco address that is not 03 would be appreciated
 
ntpntpntp

ntpntpntp

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Have you somehow managed to re-program the decoder to use long address 16 instead of short address 16 (or v.v) ? I don't know the Massoth system, but I think on some DCC systems entering "03" instead of "3" when selecting a loco address may mean use a long address format instead of short?

Can you read the decoder CVs ok on your Massoth? Need to check bit 5 of CV29 to determine if set to long or short addressing, and check CV1 (short address) or CV17 & CV18 (long address).

Alternatively, maybe the speed steps were set differently when it was programmed on the NCE and now doesn't match what the Massoth expects? On my NCE use of the old 14 speed step mode was discontinued a long time ago, so by default it may have programmed the decoder to 28/128 steps? Check bit 1 of CV29?
 
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adverse camber

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Thanks. The massoth system will not read from or write to the chip at all. It was coded on the NCE using the short address and worked when tested using that address. Now can’t get a peep out of it on the massoth. Normally copes with both 14 and 28 speed steps but default is 28/128 which is what I use on all but the oldest chips. I will se if I can read cv 29 but on current showing I Doubt it will do so
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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When using your Massoth System are you programming on ‘Main” of ‘Program Track”? Also from memory there is more than 1 method on the Navigator to Program the Loco Address. Perhaps if one does not work the other may.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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Is this the original DCC factory sound? If so, it is the "quasinami", an abortive first attempt of a large scale version of the Tsunami.

If it is this loco, you need to be sure that there are no lights on that are not run from the decoder (turn all light switches off) and also make sure your track voltage is UNDER 21 volts, and more like 18v. They were unpredictable at 20v and went nuts at 21.

If you are on the service track, then you most likely have a different issue. I'm not a massoth expert, but do direct CV programming, not paged or register.

The fact you had issues with an NCE again points to the loco. Perhaps a good thing to do is test power pickup on all wheels, something is amiss.

Greg
 
PhilP

PhilP

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I'm with Greg..

Must be on a programming track.. All accessories and lights off..
Is there a power-buffer? - These can be a PITA when trying to program the decoder.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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bump....

outstanding questions:
1. programming track or programming on the main
2. programming moded
3. if programming on the main, what is your track voltage, must be under 20v

The fact that it would only accept a 2 digit address is suspicious... on the NCE system could you read and write CV's? Were you in service mode?


Greg
 
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adverse camber

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many thanks for your interest. I did reply but it seems to have gone down the pan with the disc array!

let me lay out exactly what we have tried:
Climax has a factory fitted chip. I bought it second hand but it looked almost new to me and had been little if ever run. I do not think there is power buffer (sound stops as soon as electricity is switched off).
Worked fine on my Massoth system out of the box with CV1 coded at address 3

Attempted to assign an alternative number (I keep 3 for visitors) on a separate programming track with the Massoth but failed. Behaviour when trying to programme with the massoth on a programming track is odd, sometimes there appears to be a change written according to the massoth system but the loco does not then respond when out on the main track. Cant read any CV's when on the progamming track.
Read around a bit and took it loco to my local (mainly OO and N) train club where we have an NCE system.

Using the NCE on a programming track, managed to reassign CV 1 to No16 (from 3), we did try to programme it to CV 6 but it would not accept it. Using a rolling road we then checked that with the NCE system the loco worked normally (coded as No16) and sound and lights were fine as well as movement. no other CV's were changed.

Took the loco home and put it back on my massoth system....no sound, and no activity. If I try and program it with the massoth, there are a few clicks and shudders and lights flash when I attempt to reassign CV 1 but it still does not work. It appears I can neither read a CV nor write to one.
 
PhilP

PhilP

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I think you are taking too much current when you try to program the loco? - Lights and 'clicks' suggest it tries to do something, but then limits.

I would normally turn off lights, smoke, sound before attempting to program a loco.

If the loco ran on address 16, there should be no reason for it not to on your system. - Unless it was set to a high address.
Some systems will regard '016' or '0016' as a high address, as opposed to '16'.


Is this your only DCC loco?
Just want to prove you can read/write CV's to 'something'.. This would prove your CS, cables, track are all OK.

East Anglia is a bit spread-out. First part of post-code, or area, might discover another G-scaler on here is not too far away? - Help may be available??
 
Gizzy

Gizzy

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I think you are taking too much current when you try to program the loco? - Lights and 'clicks' suggest it tries to do something, but then limits.

I would normally turn off lights, smoke, sound before attempting to program a loco.

If the loco ran on address 16, there should be no reason for it not to on your system. - Unless it was set to a high address.
Some systems will regard '016' or '0016' as a high address, as opposed to '16'.


Is this your only DCC loco?
Just want to prove you can read/write CV's to 'something'.. This would prove your CS, cables, track are all OK.

East Anglia is a bit spread-out. First part of post-code, or area, might discover another G-scaler on here is not too far away? - Help may be available??
Adverse Camber has many DCC locos! I can vouch for that as I've known him for many years, and he has an extensive system run using a Massoth system. I was there at his open day last Sun.

I think the answer might be as you say Phil, maybe the NCE address suggestion?

Or maybe the Bachmann decoder isn't compatible with Massoth Z1200....
 
PhilP

PhilP

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If the 'set address' function on the Navigator was used, it might have written to a CV that the Bachmann decoder uses for 'something else? - Similar to the problem using this function to try to set the address on a Marklin decoder.
 
John S

John S

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Bachmann Climax Tsunami....

Programming Track:
When programming the address on the programming track simply change the corresponding CVs to the desired address.

Example: Changing the address from 3 to 50, set CV 1=50 and the locomotive will now respond to address 50 when placed on the mainline.

Mainline Programming (Ops Mode):

You can still change the address on the mainline. When programming the address on the mainline it is important to note that you must know the current address of the locomotive or else it will not program that locomotive since it only sends the programming packets (CV adjustments) to the selected locomotive.

It is also important to notice what type of address you currently are using as the decoder will not allow you to change the type of address currently in use. For example, a Bachmann Tsunami-equipped locomotive comes with a default value of short address 3. To change the address you must first change it to a long address.

Example: Changing the address from 3 to 50:

Step 1: First, select address 3. Now change the address to a long address not being currently used that is easy to remember (such as 1000), by using either the long address option found on most command stations or manually via CVs 17,18, and 29.
*Note most command stations will just ask the address you want and will change the CVs internally.

Step 2: Next, exit out of mainline programming and select locomotive 1000, and make sure the engine runs on its new address.

Step 3: Return to mainline programming (still with address 1000) and change CV 1 = 50, and change CV 29 = 6.

Step 4: Exit programming mode and select locomotive 50. The locomotive will now be on address 50.

Other Decoder Features
Bachmann sound-equipped locomotives contain most of the sound features found on aftermarket Tsunami decoders.

However, Bachmann sound-equipped models shipped prior to July of 2010 do not support CVs 148-176 and CVs 201-208.

All decoders built after July of 2010 contain all of the CVs found in the aftermarket Tsunami but have custom default values as selected by Bachmann.

CV Manual here.......

Function Assignments:
Bachmann sound-equipped locomotives contain most of the sound features found on aftermarket Tsunami, however the function mapping defaults have been customised for each locomotive. The differences between the decoders are listed below:

127823_b4b64d1588ddb61b4e10fb60b0d8ce21.png



If you want to program your Bachmann sound-equipped locomotive to have the same function assignments as Tsunami-equipped models in which yourself or an installer performed the installation, refer to the default CV values listed below:
127824_00cb5ec7276e332157fe4109d0ae3639.png
 
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Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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So the key may be that statement:

It is also important to notice what type of address you currently are using as the decoder will not allow you to change the type of address currently in use. For example, a Bachmann Tsunami-equipped locomotive comes with a default value of short address 3. To change the address you must first change it to a long address.

That would seem to be a plausible explanation for the difficulty to change address. (very weird)

Greg
 
ntpntpntp

ntpntpntp

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So the key may be that statement:

It is also important to notice what type of address you currently are using as the decoder will not allow you to change the type of address currently in use. For example, a Bachmann Tsunami-equipped locomotive comes with a default value of short address 3. To change the address you must first change it to a long address.

That would seem to be a plausible explanation for the difficulty to change address. (very weird)

Greg
Agreed, though surely that only applies to Programming on the Main, otherwise you'd never be able to set it to a long address? Seems rather worrying that A adverse camber says can't even read CVs on the programming track with the Massoth system?
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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I know the op said "programmed on separate programming track", but would like to be crystal clear it was definitely in "service mode"... I have a separate program track with my Zimo, but it is outputting DCC until I tell it to go to service mode.

It is probably in service mode, but would like to be crystal clear.

Greg
 
beavercreek

beavercreek

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I use a Massoth DCC system but tend not use the central station/navigator to change CVs etc.
I have installed a wide range of manufacturers' DCC decoders in my locos, the majority of which are sound equipped (I do use non-sound decoders for when I motorise freight and passenger cars (to act as helpers on my gradients)

For all makes (including Bachmann's quasinami in my Climaxes and Shay) I use the inexpensive SPROG III.
It can handle every chip that I throw at it and it has native software for PC or Mac OSX.
It has an easy to use graphical interface (GUI) and it can change sound characteristics (volume, speed of chuff/notch etc) but it cannot swap or install sound files.

I now have a piece of track mounted on a board with the SPROG unit also mounted so the 'programming track' can be placed anywhere quickly for DCC programming and plugged into the laptop USB (and the SPROG's small power pack into the house or outside power mains of course).

For actually changing sound files I use:
For Massoth chips I use ESU's PC module module because of the ability to change sound files etc
For ESU chips I use ESU's Lokprogrammer module because of the ability to change sound files etc

But to confirm what has been said before; do set the Massoth unit to 18v or lower if you are going to use the Massoth central unit to program Bachmann 'quasinami' decoders reliably...
They are a good little decoder and are less susceptible to higher voltage problems than the boards installed in the 3 truck shays.. but they may give problems over 20v/21v.... but then again why have a Climax tearing around at high voltage as they were a nice slow moving logging and industrial loco in real life and that lovely Bachmann running gear will be stressed out of its mind!
 
A

adverse camber

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Many thanks to you all for your comments and help. I shall go away and try and make sense of it all. I do have a sperate programming track, isolated from the main or use a rolling road. I do all my programming like this rather than on the main line. both have a DPDT centre off switch so I can programme and then throw the switch to check that the loco now functions in the way I now expect.

I used to have a SPOG and it sounds as if the answer might be to go back to using one. I shall also try reducing the track voltage, though I don't see that this would have much effect on the programming mode. I do run my shay and Climax slowly on the logging branch line but most of the engines run on a main line so need to go a reasonable speed.
 
beavercreek

beavercreek

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I used to have a SPOG and it sounds as if the answer might be to go back to using one. I shall also try reducing the track voltage, though I don't see that this would have much effect on the programming mode. I do run my shay and Climax slowly on the logging branch line but most of the engines run on a main line so need to go a reasonable speed.
Go for the SPROG III as it can work at a higher amperage for big locos...although LGB and Bachmann locos are generally lower power hungry... having the extra power headroom is always good