better smoke on Stainz 20212

chris333

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Appologies if this has all been said before but its my first visit to the forum. I am running a 20212 Stainz with a LGB 65002 sound unit plugged into the socket and a trigger unit for bell and whistle, very basic I know but seemed like a easy way of making it sound better.
I would really like to get some decent smoke and would appreciate any ideas. I have a spare Stainz and am keen to have a go at adding some impovements, some of the ones that have converted to run the Massoth smoke generators look amazing but I guess this is a tricky installation.
 

Madman

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We always like to re-hash old subjects. We tend to forget, those of us that are a bit older, the subjects that we beat to death in the past. :rofl:

I purchased a DC-DC voltage reducer from a Chinese seller on Ebay. It will take whatever voltage you are using, up to I believe 30 volts, and reduce it to from zero to 30 volts. This works well with the LGB 5 volt smoke units. These devices have a small screw, which when turned regultaes the out going voltage. I was able to fit the device into the cab. I run battery power and have not noticed any reduced running or performance issues with this regulator.
This is one version; http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-LM2596-...093?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a79b67a05
 

chris333

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Thanks for the info, im not sure what the voltage of the factory version is im guessing its 18v which is why you think I need a regulator.
il try and explain what im trying to achieve as you might suggest something else when you have abit more information. I have about 100ft of track running around my cafe situated in a station I alternate with 3 Stainz engines. Really all I want to do is occasionally have one blast out a decent amount of smoke particually when there are some children around as they love the train. I dont need it to pulse or sync with the wheels just a continuous blast out would be ideal. I hope this makes sence.
 

Neil Robinson

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chris333 said:
Thanks for the info, im not sure what the voltage of the factory version is im guessing its 18v which is why you think I need a regulator.
Most, if not all, Stainz factory smoke fitted locos do have nominal 18V smoke units. Therefore you need about 18V on the rails to make them work reasonably well. Unless you are running digital the loco will be travelling way too fast at 18V, and at sensible speeds the smoke will be disappointing.
More expensive LGB model steam locos have nominal 5V smoke units and electronics to ensure that the smoke unit voltage doesn't exceed around 6 or 7 volts. With these you only need about 8 to 10 volts on the track to get reasonable smoke due to a voltage drop in the electronics. This is what Dan's suggestion will achieve.

Another factor is the amount of smoke fluid, too much and it can't get hot enough to work.
I find that 0.5 to 0.6 ml is the optimum amount of fluid to put into an empty smoke unit, this was recently confirmed when I read an instruction sheet that stated 0.7ml maximum.

As LGB don't fit a switch to 5V smoke units that permits running with the smoke unit turned off, overfilling smoke units is one way to extend their life.

The Graupner 6V smoke unit, that I feel sure is made by Suethe who used to supply LGB is available at a relatively reasonable price from model boat suppliers such as
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/model_electronics.html < Link To http://www.cornwallmodelb...model_electronics.html
or
http://www.westbourne-model.co.uk/acatalog/Model_Boat_Electronics.html < Link To http://www.westbourne-mod..._Boat_Electronics.html
 

chris333

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Thanks I think im finally getting jist of it. (or maybe not) So if can get hold of a Massoth 5v smoke generator and put in a regulator to stop it catching fire would this be my best option, I dont really want spend a fortune getting it all digital
 

chris333

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Ok cheers thats great I guess with a name like Stainzmeister Im definately speaking to the top chap on Stainz, result! now I know what to do just need to know how to do it. Ive looked at Massoth 5v and there is 2 types the pulse generator and the funnel type which would you recommend. Would one perform (ie more smoke) better than the other and how would the fitting be with the regulator etc. Would it be possible to replace the factory version and use the on off switch inside the cab.
 

chris333

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Thanks Mark just checked your link that kind of cancels out my question about which version to go for. Can you advise on the fitting them Im up for the callenge.
 

chris333

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sawing and grinding does sound abit of a job, did have my heart set on the pulse version though as the videos of these look the business. Where does the regulator fit it to all this and would the result of putting the pulse in be worth the effort if I can pull it off.
 

stevedenver

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Neil Robinson said:
chris333 said:
Thanks for the info, im not sure what the voltage of the factory version is im guessing its 18v which is why you think I need a regulator.
Most, if not all, Stainz factory smoke fitted locos do have nominal 18V smoke units. Therefore you need about 18V on the rails to make them work reasonably well. Unless you are running digital the loco will be travelling way too fast at 18V, and at sensible speeds the smoke will be disappointing.
More expensive LGB model steam locos have nominal 5V smoke units and electronics to ensure that the smoke unit voltage doesn't exceed around 6 or 7 volts. With these you only need about 8 to 10 volts on the track to get reasonable smoke due to a voltage drop in the electronics. This is what Dan's suggestion will achieve.

Another factor is the amount of smoke fluid, too much and it can't get hot enough to work.
I find that 0.5 to 0.6 ml is the optimum amount of fluid to put into an empty smoke unit, this was recently confirmed when I read an instruction sheet that stated 0.7ml maximum.

[style="background-color: #00ff00;"]As LGB don't fit a switch to 5V smoke units that permits running with the smoke unit turned off, overfilling smoke units is one way to extend their life.

The Graupner 6V smoke unit, that I feel sure is made by Suethe who used to supply LGB is available at a relatively reasonable price from model boat suppliers such as
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/model_electronics.html < Link To http://www.cornwallmodelb...model_electronics.html
or
http://www.westbourne-model.co.uk/acatalog/Model_Boat_Electronics.html < Link To http://www.westbourne-mod..._Boat_Electronics.html
FYI
Something i have seen, is that it is possible to fill the thing, and run the loco, and melt the stack!!!!
I saw this on an old 2019S C and S mogul in a shop,
and will never forget it as i was so surprised. It is so obvious once you think about it.

Someone topped the stack and ran the loco a long time. The fluid will get very hot, as does the heating element. It is essentially like boiling oil inside the metal smoker and will melt the stack. But the oil gets much hotter than water.

So, between the two options of the 5v expiring or the plastic deforming, you can make a choice.

While we are on this subject, would anyone know the value of a resistor to put in line between the 5v and the track??
The chinese step down looks great, but a resistor must be smaller.

And, are the hook up points , ie in and out, obvious on the step down? , as the pic , at quick glance, appears to me, not to have an obvious hook up point.

I recently monkeyed with my own stainz, a late model #3, plastic Allen gear, -(the starter set cheapy sans smoker-non-directional lighting, no functional sockets etc)

As far as tear down, i was again reminded that they are time consuming, somewhat complex, and tight
with the idea of inserting the LGB sound box and standing sound caps, firebow flicker and smoke unit.

I gave up. While i could and did cram in the LGB unit, I wasnt pleased. So I stopped and left it stock unitl a bit more thought was given to the project. I too want the pulsed unit, but, in this aspect, the work really is an undertaking , and the loco will lose a good deal of weight.

Simple concepts often take a lot of work to execute.-
 

chris333

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Awesome that picture is what im talking about the kids would love it. I think im going to tackle the pulse generator version if this is the results I might get. I only plan to use the smoke occasionally so wont have the problem of over filling and over heating. Is the main issue fitting the pulse version making room for it to fit or are there other problems to watch out for is the wireing be the same.
 

stevedenver

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well i ordered 2 of the step downs
really too cheap to be
and on closer inspection, lo and behold
'in' and 'out' grommets!

have these planned for.... cabeese with tail lights and one with.....a chimney stack with smoke insert-

wonder if these units willl
arrive?
work?
last more than a month?
result i ID theft issues?

still seeking the wild and adventruous life you know
 

Neil Robinson

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stevedenver said:
FYI
Something i have seen, is that it is possible to fill the thing, and run the loco, and melt the stack!!!!
I saw this on an old 2019S C and S mogul in a shop,
and will never forget it as i was so surprised.
Thanks for that info, I'll bear it in mind in future.
It's not something I've experienced, however whilst they don't normally change colour when run dry I have known them glow bright red if they are on the verge of expiring with no fluid in them. I wonder if the one you witnessed was one that was about to expire? I've also found that the LGB voltage stabiliser can fail in such a manner as too give too great a voltage to the smoke unit resulting in failure of the smoke unit.
 

Neil Robinson

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stevedenver said:
well i ordered 2 of the step downs
really too cheap to be
and on closer inspection, lo and behold
'in' and 'out' grommets!
have these planned for.... cabeese with tail lights and one with.....a chimney stack with smoke insert-
wonder if these units willl
arrive?
work?
last more than a month?
result i ID theft issues?
still seeking the wild and adventruous life you know
I've also ordered a couple for evaluation.
From the pictures I think the two things that may be overstressed on higher output current and input/output voltage difference are the heat sink and inductor. However a smoke unit will probably be well within their operating range
 

Madman

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Yes, the Chinese regulators are extremely inexpensive. I have several and I only burned one out due to my error. As for where to locate the regulator, I found that there is enough room in the cab. The easiest Stainz to do the work on is the #3. These usually came with the 30th anniversary set. They are meant to take a smoke unit if the buyer cared to install one. The stack is hollow and will allow the smoke unit wires to be fed through it and directly to the circuit board. Although they would run to the regulator instead. Track or battery power goes directly to the regulator. Here is a short, not very good video of one of the Stainz locos that I performed the upgrade on;

http://youtu.be/g7xKuOZXNlY
 

stevedenver

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so dan
on the #3-is that loco suitable for a 5v into the board?
or is it like Otto, board supplies track power and thus an 18volt smoker is needed?
 

Madman

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stevedenver said:
so dan
on the #3-is that loco suitable for a 5v into the board?
or is it like Otto, board supplies track power and thus an 18volt smoker is needed?

No. Sorry if I caused any confusion. The two pins, on the board, would normally supply straight track power to an 18 volt smoke unit. In the modification scenario, they would be routed to the DC-DC converter. Then the 5 volt smoke unit would be connected to the output side of the converter.
 

chris333

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Dan, thanks for to video and the tip about putting the regulator in the cab is that the 5v funnel version smoker or the pulse version.
My Stainz has the factory smoke stack and the switch it the cab am I right in thinking that I can use the original connection to connect the new smoke generator via the regulator and then use the cab switch to run without the smoker switched on as I dont want smoke all the time and have been advised that the smoke unit will burn out if not switched off.
 

Neil Robinson

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chris333 said:
My Stainz has the factory smoke stack and the switch it the cab am I right in thinking that I can use the original connection to connect the new smoke generator via the regulator and then use the cab switch to run without the smoker switched on as I dont want smoke all the time and have been advised that the smoke unit will burn out if not switched off.
[style="color: #000000;"]The usual LGB cab switch has either three or four positions numbered 0 to 2 or 3.
0 is all off, 1 smoke and lights only on, 2 smoke lights and motor on and 3, if fitted, is smoke lights motor and sound on.
This doesn't give the option to power the motor with the smoke off so an additional switch would be needed one of the smoke unit wires to give this option.

Judging by the pictures the Massoth regulator can be connected directly to the existing smoke unit wires as the input isn't polarity sensitive. The cheapo Chinese ones are polarity sensitive so an additional rectifier would be needed to ensure correct polarity regardless of the direction the loco is travelling.