Slaters 16mm wheels on 45mm axles?

[Fred2179G]

A friend of mine in Hawaii bought a Smallbrook Studios power block to use in an old steam engine that his kids play with. He generally liked the unit, but has a problem with the wheels, so I thought I'd ask you guys for your thoughts.
Here's the issue. He specified 45mm axles as he is a typical LGB track guy, The kit turned up with Slaters 16mm "Small England" 2' wheels, and he found it won't sit on the track:

Michael at Smallbrook supplied some washers for the axles that push them a little further apart, but now they catch the frogs as the back-to-back is wider than 40mm.

I have some Slaters G-3 wheels (1:22.5) on 45mm axles, and the wheels are about 7mm+ wide at the treads. These wheels are more like 4mm, my pal tells me. Surely 16mm scale (1:19) wheels should have decently wide tyres/tires?
Anyone have any info or opinion about Slaters 16mm wheels on 45mm axles?

 

[The Devonian]

Bachmann supply wheel set - 4 per pack.
They come in two diameters 31mm. and 24.5mm. Both are 45mm. track gauge.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

And how will he fix the gear on the bachmann axle?

The terms in the post are strange, but it almost looks like the axles themselves are 45 mm in length, which is of course wrong.

If the distance between the rails is 45 mm, then the required length of the axles is 45 mm PLUS about double the tread width of the wheels used...

The axle needs to be longer than the dimension between the rails, because the wheels themselves when assembled are more than 45 mm apart.

really sounds like the washers were just a wild guess.... what was the back to back BEFORE the washers? It looks WAY off in the picture. It should be easy to calculate the washer thickness needed, but I am still guessing the axles are also too short.

Greg

 

[Rhinochugger]

Slaters wheelsets for 16mm will be 32mm gauge.

Slaters Gauge 1 wheelsets will be for 45mm gauge and will run OK on the various G scale manufacturers' track

The difficulty with their Gauge 1 offerings is finding a suitable diameter.

Now, I'm just wondering whether the picture is showing locomotive drivers or tender wheelsets. Drivers will have square shouldered sockets and the axles will have sqaure shouldered ends with an end nut that requires a two-pronged screwdriver. Tender wheelsets will be a simple push fit which may not have sufficient interference to support a geared drive train.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I think you could measure the tie spacing on LGB, which seems to be almost exactly the wheel tread diameter from the picture... that should give you a reasonable close estimate of size don't you agree?

Greg

 

[Rhinochugger]

I think you could measure the tie spacing on LGB, which seems to be almost exactly the wheel tread diameter from the picture... that should give you a reasonable close estimate of size don't you agree?

Greg

Yep, but you need to look at the wheel face to see whether we're talking driving wheels / axles or tender wheelsets

From the observation that you suggest, Greg, the likelihood is that they are loco drivers, in which case it should be easy to buy some Slaters Gauge 1 axles. However, the original post talks about adding washers, which made me wonder whether the axles have plain, round ends

 

[Rhinochugger]

I think you could measure the tie spacing on LGB, which seems to be almost exactly the wheel tread diameter from the picture... that should give you a reasonable close estimate of size don't you agree?

Greg

OK, I've gone back and re-read - and it's sinking in slowly.

What I think is being said is that they have ordered 16mm : 1ft wheels and 45 mm gauge axles, but the tread is insufficiently wide.

Not sure that I've come across this before. Slaters do make some wheels for either 32 mm gauge or 45 mm gauge, but these were generally available through GRS at Prince Risborough for their kits (GRS also sold the wheels and axles separately).

Just doing a bit of Googling ............................

 

[Rhinochugger]

GRS still list the Slaters wheels with either axle, but there is only one diameter (the L&B wheels have extended axles for outside frames)

32/45mm Narrow Gauge Part | Garden Railway Specialists Tel:01844 345158

Garden Railway Specialists specialises in model railway for the garden, G Scale Garden Railways, 16mm, garden railways and more. Featuring live steam and electric locomotives, rolling stock and accessories for G scale narrow and standard gauge. Located in the UK.

www.grsuk.com

What I suspect is likely is that Slaters other wheels for 32 mm gauge are to 0 Guage standards which may well have narrower treads.

 

[Paul M]

Definately looks like 32mm gauge, not 45. The wheels themselves are usually the same for 32 & 45, especially as most newer locos are now gauge adjustable

 

[Rhinochugger]

If it's any help, the 16mm Association wheels standards show a 4.5 mm tread width for both 32mm gauge and 45mm gauge

 

[Rhinochugger]

A friend of mine in Hawaii bought a Smallbrook Studios power block to use in an old steam engine that his kids play with. He generally liked the unit, but has a problem with the wheels, so I thought I'd ask you guys for your thoughts.
Here's the issue. He specified 45mm axles as he is a typical LGB track guy, The kit turned up with Slaters 16mm "Small England" 2' wheels, and he found it won't sit on the track:

Michael at Smallbrook supplied some washers for the axles that push them a little further apart, but now they catch the frogs as the back-to-back is wider than 40mm.

I have some Slaters G-3 wheels (1:22.5) on 45mm axles, and the wheels are about 7mm+ wide at the treads. These wheels are more like 4mm, my pal tells me. Surely 16mm scale (1:19) wheels should have decently wide tyres/tires?
Anyone have any info or opinion about Slaters 16mm wheels on 45mm axles?

So, if the 16mm Association standard is 4.5mm tread width, and you're indicating approx 4mm, then the tread width isn't the problem.

I was a bit thrown by the photo - is the lower (in the photo) set of wheels on the rail?

If so, then something seems odd as the gauge would appear to be neither 32mm nor 45mm.

Slaters are the bees knees for wheels. I have only used them in this scale for my scratchbuilt 2-6-2 but they run on 45mm gauge through Aristo and USAT turnouts no problem.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Still looks like the axle length.... if you set the back to back properly (40 mm), and the flanges are not over thick (which by the picture shows they are fine), then it should sit on the rails.

forget the washers for now, just get the gauge right...

(then you can measure for washers)

Greg

 

[dunnyrail]

Gauge 1 scale wheels can be somewhat finer in the depth of the tread than we are used to. Many moons ago I had a Merlin Live Steam Loco that had issues with LGB points, to make the back to back work I put slithers of metal on the check rails. Just enough to make the Merlin work but not too much to stop LGB stock run. Looks like this has fallen foul of a similar issue. Though the picture is a little misleading perhaps because the axles also look to be too short to me.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Still looks like the axle length.... if you set the back to back properly (40 mm), and the flanges are not over thick (which by the picture shows they are fine), then it should sit on the rails.

forget the washers for now, just get the gauge right...

(then you can measure for washers)

Greg

Yep, back to back is key - I'd email Slater's and ask them for the correct axle length so that you can check it.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Are the wheels you used the 16824FR as in the picture below?

 

[Fred2179G]

Yep, back to back is key - I'd email Slater's and ask them for the correct axle length so that you can check it.

Well, you guys certainly tried from the limited info. I did say they were "Slaters 16mm "Small England" 2' wheels" which are the driving wheels shown in the pic of the Slaters catalog posted by Greg.

At the time the photo was taken, I did ask my pal to measure the back-to-back and he says it was 40mm - that's without any spacers or washers.

Greg, the axle length is a red herring - yes of course the axle is longer than 45mm. The axles are for 45mm gauge wheelsets. I have a pair of gauge-3 4' 6" driving wheels (Gauge-3 is 2.5") and they are mounted on Slaters 45mm gauge axles (These are perfect for an EBT 48" driving wheel in 1:20 and they are 7mm wide at the treads, 40mm back-to-back and work perfectly.)



I concur with the info above about the 16mm standard (I knew there was a good reason to ask you guys.) I was quite surprised that the Slaters 16mm driving wheel was about 4mm wide, but if that's the 16mm standard, then so be it.

In my photo, the other wheels are on the rails. I was wrestling with 2 issues.
1. 4mm wide wheels on axles that are 40mm back-to-back means the total width over the wheels outside the treads is only 48mm. On 45mm gauge track, that is 1.5mm on each rail, and if one wheel is hard up against the rail head, then assuming the flange is 1mm (+/-) there will be 3mm on the rail at one side, and 1mm+40mm+4mm from that rail to the other side of the other wheel, which is 45mm, so the other wheel isn't even on the rail. As you see in the photo.
So you can't use 16mm standard wheels on 45mm gauge axles.
2. Adding spacers or washers is fine in theory, but in practice you are opening up the back-to-back and the wheels will pick the frog. As my pal discovered.

 

[Rhinochugger]

1. 4mm wide wheels on axles that are 40mm back-to-back means the total width over the wheels outside the treads is only 48mm. On 45mm gauge track, that is 1.5mm on each rail, and if one wheel is hard up against the rail head, then assuming the flange is 1mm (+/-) there will be 3mm on the rail at one side, and 1mm+40mm+4mm from that rail to the other side of the other wheel, which is 45mm, so the other wheel isn't even on the rail. As you see in the photo.
So you can't use 16mm standard wheels on 45mm gauge axles.

I go back to my scratchbuilt 2-6-2 (piccies are on my other computer I'm afraid) but it runs on Slater's 44m diameter drivers made for the 16mm : 1ft GRS kit of the Lynton & Barnstaple loco. I haven't measured the tread width, but I expect it to be about 4.5mm.

When I first built it, I had an LGB R3 turnout on the layout, an Aristo #6 and a USAT #6 and it ran through them all without difficulty.

I currently have Aristo 10 ft and #6 and a USAT #6 turnout plus an LGB diamond, and the loco runs fine.

I'll do a bit of measuring in the morning. The wheelbase is longish, so the middle drivers have had the flanges turned down in a lathe (someone did it for me) so they are blind.

There shouldn't be a problem - there are plenty of people in the UK running wheels to 16mm Association standards on LGB and similar trackwork.

As an aside, the back-to-back for 32 mm track is 28 mm - so add 2 x 4.50 mm = 37 mm - only 5 mm wider than the gauge, but for both 32mm and 45mm gauges, the Association standards are for 1.5 mm thick flanges

 

[Eeyore.Boater]

Perhaps you could glue washers (about 35mm od ?) to the backs of the wheels to build up the flange thickness to about 1.5 mm.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Perhaps you could glue washers (about 35mm od ?) to the backs of the wheels to build up the flange thickness to about 1.5 mm.

I don't think Slaters would produce wheels for 16mm narrow gauge that don't comply with the 16mm Association standards - I'd be very surprised.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So, if the wheels are indeed overall 4mm wide (from back of wheel to front), you cannot use 40mm as back to back.

I'd be interested in the flange thickness, but yes, overall you lost 4mm of overall width on a wheelset.

You would have to run the wheels and track to fine scale... and that is not happening with LGB turnouts, not in this universe!

Greg