Slaters 16mm wheels on 45mm axles?

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
30,263
3,632
North West Norfolk
I assume this is what you want:

View attachment 284108
Jimmy, thanks - it was the one that Greg posted that I thought was a bit more useful, as it deals with the wheels rather than the track.

What I noticed here, though, was that there are three standards for 0 Gauge (I knew of two and had forgotten the 'ultra' Scale 7 which I think is the 7mm answer to P4) so we should think ourselves luck with G scale :devil::devil:
 

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
19,666
3,927
72
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Jimmy, thanks - it was the one that Greg posted that I thought was a bit more useful, as it deals with the wheels rather than the track.

What I noticed here, though, was that there are three standards for 0 Gauge (I knew of two and had forgotten the 'ultra' Scale 7 which I think is the 7mm answer to P4) so we should think ourselves luck with G scale :devil::devil:
Often the ‘ultra‘ 7 is called ‘Scale7‘, Scaleseven’ or even ‘P7‘. link to their Site.

 

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
601
133
USA
So Fred, are LGB R1 turnouts designed for 40mm "back to back" - not even close.
Which brings us nicely back to the two solutions.
1. Attach a packing strip to all the diverging route check rails on the line to achieve the required " check gauge", as pointed out by Dunnyrail in post#13.
2. Modify the one loco by adjusting the "back to back" as dictated by the "check gauge" using the small washers on the axle. Then add larger diameter washers to thicken the back of the flange enough to negotiate the LGB turnouts.
Wow I do like the sound of my own keyboard!
Well, the objective of this thread was to get some UK opinions on this situation - we achieved that. ;)

I started making my own track in the 1950s, and continued sporadically until about 10 years ago, when I ended up in living in an apartment with no layout. Garden Railway Magazine even published an article I wrote about how to make your own points/switches. So I have wrestled with the problem of finescale wheels versus coarse commercial wheels in many scales over the years.

The fact is that if you want wheels with different back-to-back measurements to go through your frog, you need to make the check rail gap small and the frog gap wide. That way your finescale wheels don't pick the frog, and the coarse wheels have room to get through the wide gap at the frog. However, both will drop in to the gap, a problem that LGB solved by putting a runway in the gap for the wheels to run on.

Adding a brass strip along the check rail of an LGB point/switch is a well-known solution if you have non-LGB slightly nicer wheels. (Accucraft come to mind.) However, it doesn't help the LGB wheels - they may bounce over the check or frog guard rails. If you only have 2 different types of wheels, you may be able to get the strip to work for you.

Interestingly, my pal has since tried the "add a washer" solution. I explained why he was seeing derailments with axle hub washers to make the wheels rest on the rails, and he found some larger washers. Note the brass washers to push the wheels further out on the axle, and the outer washer to reduce the back-to-back again.

y4mjbgboVGRO0QhoDh6Yp1ksXRvFtI1ymZCuhrTlqpKEinisw5zQmCwcp9m0xcnZ5v7M4HBOxmGG058vPj-2as0-ZmTpWxJZ3TjN7JJ524nTFiOq8RusBuFTC6fZUtuw7BF7I23JRLn2ttzwMfAu3LqzBFWoTUSWeqV442gVLINcNH41BJP3gGJA-qjnCGofCnh


y4mdl-ybQXPupR2fZRemnIWmAGBBtzcxfg49tBS7EpvPdWzX-jOpStPk9wSVDTp5s3W98VijxWaILc9NhzWVZpW9hICGi9Xigs7PHQ1xJhlciGokPmuqgSls2G-HaAuUl1kbDm4jRT71AGBF7Qh2bXrPywpuQaF9IpOqoBj7DJnTaidj-88ZKjMp_gZB7j-vLmf


Unfortunately, even though he now had wheels with a similar back-to-back as the LGB, his flanges are so fine that it still derails on anything other than perfect track.
If you want to read the rest of his saga it is on LSC:
Large Scale Central - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Request Opinion -- Smallbrook Studio Motor Block

A final note (final for me as I think we've flushed out the issues and thoroughly discussed them.) I did hear from Slaters, and I also had an email from Michael, Mr Smallbrook Studios, both of whom I have done business with in the past, and both companies I completely recommend. Michael did say the 5mm Slaters wheels work fine on 32mm track, but he thought he might be among the first vendor to try finescale 32mm wheels on 45mm gauge axles, and he had heard similar comments from other customers.
My opinion is that the 'Small England' Sm32 wheels are just too fine to use on 45mm LGB track. What is needed is some gauge-3 type wheels with 7mm width and larger flanges. Unfortunately, Slaters doesn't make anything with coupling rods that will fit the Smallbrook chassis.
 

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
5,058
708
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
An interesting attempt at a solution.... true, making the flange super thick could indeed compensate for overly wide flangeways at the wing rails and the guard rails.

What bites you then is that the flange is so thick, that with powered track, the chance of shorting the stock rail to the adjacent movable rail is almost certain. You could start playing with the distance between the points to give you more clearance, but there is a limit, and now you need more throw, etc.

All this stuff works together. Grossly increasing the flange thickness and playing with the back to back is no magic bullet.

(by the way, I think the phrase is "fleshed out the issues" not flushed...

thanks for the post, I would have never thought to glue washers (and I still won't ;) )

Greg
 

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
30,263
3,632
North West Norfolk
What is needed is some gauge-3 type wheels with 7mm width and larger flanges. Unfortunately, Slaters doesn't make anything with coupling rods that will fit the Smallbrook chassis.
Have you looked at their 1:32 range?

If I've done my sums right, 2'-0" wheels at 16mm : 1ft will be 32mm diameter and in the table below, F8838I (Kerr Stuart) 3'-2" wheels at 1:32 (10mm : 1ft as near as dammit) will be 32mm and they use 1/4" axles

1618987512475.png
 

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
30,263
3,632
North West Norfolk
Well, the objective of this thread was to get some UK opinions on this situation - we achieved that. ;)

I started making my own track in the 1950s, and continued sporadically until about 10 years ago, when I ended up in living in an apartment with no layout. Garden Railway Magazine even published an article I wrote about how to make your own points/switches. So I have wrestled with the problem of finescale wheels versus coarse commercial wheels in many scales over the years.

The fact is that if you want wheels with different back-to-back measurements to go through your frog, you need to make the check rail gap small and the frog gap wide. That way your finescale wheels don't pick the frog, and the coarse wheels have room to get through the wide gap at the frog. However, both will drop in to the gap, a problem that LGB solved by putting a runway in the gap for the wheels to run on.

Adding a brass strip along the check rail of an LGB point/switch is a well-known solution if you have non-LGB slightly nicer wheels. (Accucraft come to mind.) However, it doesn't help the LGB wheels - they may bounce over the check or frog guard rails. If you only have 2 different types of wheels, you may be able to get the strip to work for you.

Interestingly, my pal has since tried the "add a washer" solution. I explained why he was seeing derailments with axle hub washers to make the wheels rest on the rails, and he found some larger washers. Note the brass washers to push the wheels further out on the axle, and the outer washer to reduce the back-to-back again.

y4mjbgboVGRO0QhoDh6Yp1ksXRvFtI1ymZCuhrTlqpKEinisw5zQmCwcp9m0xcnZ5v7M4HBOxmGG058vPj-2as0-ZmTpWxJZ3TjN7JJ524nTFiOq8RusBuFTC6fZUtuw7BF7I23JRLn2ttzwMfAu3LqzBFWoTUSWeqV442gVLINcNH41BJP3gGJA-qjnCGofCnh


y4mdl-ybQXPupR2fZRemnIWmAGBBtzcxfg49tBS7EpvPdWzX-jOpStPk9wSVDTp5s3W98VijxWaILc9NhzWVZpW9hICGi9Xigs7PHQ1xJhlciGokPmuqgSls2G-HaAuUl1kbDm4jRT71AGBF7Qh2bXrPywpuQaF9IpOqoBj7DJnTaidj-88ZKjMp_gZB7j-vLmf


Unfortunately, even though he now had wheels with a similar back-to-back as the LGB, his flanges are so fine that it still derails on anything other than perfect track.
If you want to read the rest of his saga it is on LSC:
Large Scale Central - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Request Opinion -- Smallbrook Studio Motor Block

A final note (final for me as I think we've flushed out the issues and thoroughly discussed them.) I did hear from Slaters, and I also had an email from Michael, Mr Smallbrook Studios, both of whom I have done business with in the past, and both companies I completely recommend. Michael did say the 5mm Slaters wheels work fine on 32mm track, but he thought he might be among the first vendor to try finescale 32mm wheels on 45mm gauge axles, and he had heard similar comments from other customers.
My opinion is that the 'Small England' Sm32 wheels are just too fine to use on 45mm LGB track. What is needed is some gauge-3 type wheels with 7mm width and larger flanges. Unfortunately, Slaters doesn't make anything with coupling rods that will fit the Smallbrook chassis.
Would it be possible to get the washers turned down, and fix them on the outside of the wheel rim (leaving the axles at their standard length)?
 

Eeyore.Boater

Registered
24 Oct 2009
101
16
Stafford
Well, the objective of this thread was to get some UK opinions on this situation - we achieved that. ;)

I started making my own track in the 1950s, and continued sporadically until about 10 years ago, when I ended up in living in an apartment with no layout. Garden Railway Magazine even published an article I wrote about how to make your own points/switches. So I have wrestled with the problem of finescale wheels versus coarse commercial wheels in many scales over the years.

The fact is that if you want wheels with different back-to-back measurements to go through your frog, you need to make the check rail gap small and the frog gap wide. That way your finescale wheels don't pick the frog, and the coarse wheels have room to get through the wide gap at the frog. However, both will drop in to the gap, a problem that LGB solved by putting a runway in the gap for the wheels to run on.

Adding a brass strip along the check rail of an LGB point/switch is a well-known solution if you have non-LGB slightly nicer wheels. (Accucraft come to mind.) However, it doesn't help the LGB wheels - they may bounce over the check or frog guard rails. If you only have 2 different types of wheels, you may be able to get the strip to work for you.

Interestingly, my pal has since tried the "add a washer" solution. I explained why he was seeing derailments with axle hub washers to make the wheels rest on the rails, and he found some larger washers. Note the brass washers to push the wheels further out on the axle, and the outer washer to reduce the back-to-back again.

y4mjbgboVGRO0QhoDh6Yp1ksXRvFtI1ymZCuhrTlqpKEinisw5zQmCwcp9m0xcnZ5v7M4HBOxmGG058vPj-2as0-ZmTpWxJZ3TjN7JJ524nTFiOq8RusBuFTC6fZUtuw7BF7I23JRLn2ttzwMfAu3LqzBFWoTUSWeqV442gVLINcNH41BJP3gGJA-qjnCGofCnh


y4mdl-ybQXPupR2fZRemnIWmAGBBtzcxfg49tBS7EpvPdWzX-jOpStPk9wSVDTp5s3W98VijxWaILc9NhzWVZpW9hICGi9Xigs7PHQ1xJhlciGokPmuqgSls2G-HaAuUl1kbDm4jRT71AGBF7Qh2bXrPywpuQaF9IpOqoBj7DJnTaidj-88ZKjMp_gZB7j-vLmf


Unfortunately, even though he now had wheels with a similar back-to-back as the LGB, his flanges are so fine that it still derails on anything other than perfect track.
If you want to read the rest of his saga it is on LSC:
Large Scale Central - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Request Opinion -- Smallbrook Studio Motor Block

A final note (final for me as I think we've flushed out the issues and thoroughly discussed them.) I did hear from Slaters, and I also had an email from Michael, Mr Smallbrook Studios, both of whom I have done business with in the past, and both companies I completely recommend. Michael did say the 5mm Slaters wheels work fine on 32mm track, but he thought he might be among the first vendor to try finescale 32mm wheels on 45mm gauge axles, and he had heard similar comments from other customers.
My opinion is that the 'Small England' Sm32 wheels are just too fine to use on 45mm LGB track. What is needed is some gauge-3 type wheels with 7mm width and larger flanges. Unfortunately, Slaters doesn't make anything with coupling rods that will fit the Smallbrook chassis.
Not quite there yet. With the benefit of hindsight you can now see that the large washers purpose is not just to restore the back to back, but to emulate the flange depth used by LGB (Thank you Greg). Having fitted a larger diameter washer, preferably in brass ( to make the following easier) you can turn the flange down using one wheel on the axle mounted in the chuck of an electric drill. Ensure the drill is firmly mounted in the jaws of a vice or otherwise strapped down, and use a fine fine against the rotating wheel to create the extended flange profile. Compare to an LGB wheel as you go. The tips of the new flanges will now be the a similar distance apart to those on the LGB wheelsets. On a topical note I don't think the Wright brothers got there at the first attempt; but first train on Mars.....
 

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
601
133
USA
(by the way, I think the phrase is "fleshed out the issues" not flushed...
No. I was trying to flush them out of the woods and make them appear, but thank you for the thought. >:)
 

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
601
133
USA
Have you looked at their 1:32 range?

If I've done my sums right, 2'-0" wheels at 16mm : 1ft will be 32mm diameter and in the table below, F8838I (Kerr Stuart) 3'-2" wheels at 1:32 (10mm : 1ft as near as dammit) will be 32mm and they use 1/4" axles
You guys never give up. Rhino, thanks for the thought, but I think we would have the same problem. Here's the G1 std:

modifieddiag.jpg


As Slaters seems to think 5mm is the 16mm standard, why would you expect them to use 6mm for the G1 wheels?
 

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
601
133
USA
With the benefit of hindsight you can now see that the large washers purpose is not just to restore the back to back, but to emulate the flange depth used by LGB
Actually, no. The big washers were purely to correct the back-to-back after you add lots of small washers to make the wheels actually stay on LGB track. If you look at the photos you can see the washers are the same diameter as the wheels.

Eric is not used to this level of engineering and I don't think he would want to try extending the flanges as you suggest.
you can turn the flange down

In fact, I doubt you could turn the washers to fit smoothly with the wheels. You seem to be suggesting removing the existing flanges and using the big washers instead? Way too much like hard work (and, based on my practical experience turning things in a vertical drill press, way too difficult to get them all the same shape.)

I did send him a set of Accucraft Forney wheels from my parts box which are 6.5mm wide, but the axle won't fit the gear he already has. We must have measured it wrong!
 

Eeyore.Boater

Registered
24 Oct 2009
101
16
Stafford
Actually, no. The big washers were purely to correct the back-to-back after you add lots of small washers to make the wheels actually stay on LGB track. If you look at the photos you can see the washers are the same diameter as the wheels.

Eric is not used to this level of engineering and I don't think he would want to try extending the flanges as you suggest.


In fact, I doubt you could turn the washers to fit smoothly with the wheels. You seem to be suggesting removing the existing flanges and using the big washers instead? Way too much like hard work (and, based on my practical experience turning things in a vertical drill press, way too difficult to get them all the same shape.)

I did send him a set of Accucraft Forney wheels from my parts box which are 6.5mm wide, but the axle won't fit the gear he already has. We must have measured it wrong!
Slight misunderstanding I think. I meant that the washer needs to be large enough to emulate the LGB flange height.
 

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
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708
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Definitely eliminate shorting potential... a quick measurement of the turnout to measure the gap between the outer rail and the moving rail on both "sides" (2 measurements per switch) would not be a bad idea.

Greg
 

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
30,263
3,632
North West Norfolk
You guys never give up. Rhino, thanks for the thought, but I think we would have the same problem. Here's the G1 std:

modifieddiag.jpg


As Slaters seems to think 5mm is the 16mm standard, why would you expect them to use 6mm for the G1 wheels?
I guess part of the problem is Slater's not knowing what track standards their customers are going to choose in the narrow gauge field - and that will apply to all scales.

Standard gauge is less of a problem, as the track standards are fairly well applied but taking our current narrow gauge of 16mm : 1ft as an example, some people will use track to 16mm Association standards and some will use 0 gauge track, while, yet again, some will build their own using, most likely, 0 gauge standards with the sleepers spaced a bit wider apart.

I think, in the UK, there's only Peco who manufacture 32mm narrow gauge track - it'd be interesting to find out how many Slater's wheels (and they also make the entire loco kit in that scale) happily run on Peco track.

1619076935163.png
 

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
601
133
USA
Because I've used them OK - see the picture in post #26
I was checking the gauge-1 wheels on Slaters website and I happened to notice that they are to 'fine' scale standards - which means 5mm width.
Then it occurred to me - if I was Slaters, I'd be re-using the steel rims on other wheels. So 24" 16mm scale wheel rims would work for 38" gauge-1 wheels. I've asked Slaters what the wheel width is of those 38" wheels - bet they are the same rims.
 

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
601
133
USA
The danger will be that the flange will be too thick, which as mentioned will almost certainly cause issues if track power, and likely to cause problems unpowered.

Greg
Greg, you are overthinking this. If the wheels are 40mm back-to-back and metal, then they are no different from LGB metal wheels in the possibility of causing a short. Clearly if you were intent on using washers as Eric tried, you would file the outer rim to the right diameter and the washer and flange to the correct back-to-back. However, as I said, trying to file 4 wheels to similar profiles on a drill in a vise is not likely to produce a good result, and why bother as there are so many wheels available that will work without washers or filing.
 

Eeyore.Boater

Registered
24 Oct 2009
101
16
Stafford
I think new wheels are a better solution - like the Accucraft ones I gave to Eric, or re-using some LGB wheels he already has.
Please thank Eric for giving it a go. It's been a learning experience for all of us.