Slaters 16mm wheels on 45mm axles?

Rhinochugger

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Semantics, gentlemen. I too have been quoting wheel width at the tread - the combined width of flange and the tread that rests on the rail.
If you go back to my post calculating why they don't fit the rails, I said 1mm flange and 3mm tread.

In fact, having now looked at the 16mm association standard, it says the same as Rhinochugger:

View attachment 283945

Perhaps. They are 16mm scale wheels, not G1MRA, that are narrower than the 16mm Assoc std shown above. My pal confirms his are 4 to 4.5mm across the wheel (flange and tread.
The 16mm Association says the same thing for 45 mm gauge, and the expectation would be to use commercial track.

But ................ Oooh, no, the 4.5 mm is tread only plus flange in both cases - so, the answer is similar to my wheels.

1618516252527.png
 
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Fred2179G

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It occurred to me that I have quite a few UK/Euro locos that are 32mm or 45mm gauge. So I measured a few wheels. This is the width of the wheel, flange+tread/running surface, at the tread.
Essel Engineering chassis - 5.5mm
Regner Easy Line Paul - 6mm
Roundhouse Stanley - 6mm.

I also sent a note to Slaters asking them to comment.
 
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So pretty narrow, the 5.5mm wheel is under the specifications for standard in G1MRA, the others right at the absolute minimum...

Would be interested in flange thickness or tread width, but you need pretty good track for those wheels, and LGB turnouts could be problematic...

Greg
 

Fred2179G

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Well, I did hear back from Slaters, who insist their wheels are 5mm wide. They also suggested washers to widen the back-to-back so the wheels stay on the LGB track. That doesn't work for me if you have LGB switches/points, as the check rails are designed for 40mm, not 42mm, back-to-back. At 42mm the wheels will hit the frog and ride over it, potentially derailing.
 

Rhinochugger

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Well, I did hear back from Slaters, who insist their wheels are 5mm wide. They also suggested washers to widen the back-to-back so the wheels stay on the LGB track. That doesn't work for me if you have LGB switches/points, as the check rails are designed for 40mm, not 42mm, back-to-back. At 42mm the wheels will hit the frog and ride over it, potentially derailing.
I'm still struggling with that first image - the axle length doesn't seem right.
 

Fred2179G

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I'm still struggling with that first image - the axle length doesn't seem right.
I'm not sure why. Slaters axles are 40mm between the shouldered square ends and if the wheels are firmly against the far rail (as yours were on your outside frame loco,) then if the flange is 1mm, you have the flange (1mm), 40mm to the back of the other wheel (=41mm total) and what Slaters claims is a 5mm wide wheel, for a total of only 46mm from the first rail to the outside of the second wheel.
None of this explains why Slaters didn't go with the 16mm std of 6mm wide.
 

Rhinochugger

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I'm not sure why. Slaters axles are 40mm between the shouldered square ends and if the wheels are firmly against the far rail (as yours were on your outside frame loco,) then if the flange is 1mm, you have the flange (1mm), 40mm to the back of the other wheel (=41mm total) and what Slaters claims is a 5mm wide wheel, for a total of only 46mm from the first rail to the outside of the second wheel.
None of this explains why Slaters didn't go with the 16mm std of 6mm wide.
No, you've got two flanges = 2mm which takes you to 47mm which means that 2mm should be on the rail :nod::nod::nod: and that would be OK.

So something's wrong. Is the gauge widened on the curve?
 

Fred2179G

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you've got two flanges = 2mm which takes you to 47mm which means that 2mm should be on the rai
what Slaters claims is a 5mm wide wheel,
Rhino, I included the second flange in the wheel width. All the wheel widths I quote are flange+tread = wheel width. I stand by my 46mm and I think these Slaters wheels are less than 5mm.
 

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In the original photo we cannot see the lower wheels, so assuming they are correctly on the track, the fact that the upper wheels miss the track and based on 6mm wheel thickness, the b2b must be around 34mm.

Or maybe we need a better photo.
 

Rhinochugger

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Rhino, I included the second flange in the wheel width. All the wheel widths I quote are flange+tread = wheel width. I stand by my 46mm and I think these Slaters wheels are less than 5mm.
Gotcha - so I'm stumped - but it means that these wheels are not up to 16mm Association standards for even 32mm track.

Weird :worried::worried::worried:
 

Fred2179G

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the b2b must be around 34mm.

Or maybe we need a better photo.

Not really. You are thinking the lower wheels are centered on the track - they are pushed as far as they can go and the flanges are firmly against the rail. The back to back is 40mm, and I did the math a page or so ago - 1 flange+(back-to-back)+other wheel must be >45mm if it is going to stay on the rails.

these wheels are not up to 16mm Association standards for even 32mm track.
Right. Even if they are 5mm as Slaters claims, they should be 6mm (1.5mm flange and 4.5mm tread.)
 

Eeyore.Boater

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So you think this is a standard?
7D360C52-4D7C-4804-B193-21D701E625C3.jpeg
The words "standard" "define" and "works well enough" in the same sentence are ringing alarm bells here!
To suggest that anyone is not manufacturing to this "standard" seems a good thing to me!
Back at the beginning of our hobby there were a lot of similar products that maybe should have run together but didn't quite. So the earliest standards took all the manufacturers wheels and track measurements with an aim to improve compatibility for the least effort. Gradually over decades, and even a half century, individual manufacturers made subtle changes, and the standards evolved to include all sorts of tolerances to ensure the maximum compatibility. We're still a least another half century from having anything like a unifying standard for 45mm gauge, with a lot of standards to choose from:
Plus many more purely for the track from the same sites.
Read through a few of these and you soon get the message that its the "check gauge" and not the "back to back" that is the controlling dimension; and yes the "back to back" forms part of that dimension. Quite simply it ensures that the back of one wheel contacts the check(guard) rail before the flange of the other wheel can contact the frog.
So to "justify" the Slaters assertion that it needs small washers between the axle shoulder and back of the wheel we can have a look through the standards to see if a similar wheel exists.
A wheel that closely matches the Slaters offering appears in the Spur IIm standard S 01, but on the 32mm gauge line. This isn't a problem as the tolerances on the flange thickness have a common dimension with the 45mm gauge wheels. Note 7 of that standard basically says that if the flange is just a bit undersize that the check gauge can be maintained by a corresponding adjustment in the back to back.
Here is a picture of a wheelset with 5mm wide wheels set to the 45mm gauge line of that standard sitting on the frog of an LGB R1 turnout. The picture is taken on the straight side for clarity, but its the same story on the curved side.
46E9AF17-AD6E-44A8-A3A0-E29233F9BB30.jpeg
As you can see the back of the right hand wheel is nowhere need the (purely cosmetic) check rail; and don't go thinking that the check rail works with LGB wheels. Here is a picture of an LGB wheelset in the same position, again with the righthand wheel some distance from the check rail.
1EABD64E-E7AB-4EBB-97B5-A8776E4CA6AE.jpeg
So why do LGB wheelsets manage to get round the diverging route when there is no contact with the check rail to prevent then colliding with and climbing up the frog?
Simple, LGB cheats, they accept that the wheels will hit the frog, so they change the shape of the frog!
Like this:
666498C4-275C-4DDC-8339-DF3D9AFFDB88.jpeg
Its not an optical illusion, the tip of the frog is about 1mm out of gauge in each direction; so any measurements need to be taken from the brass rail immediately behind the frog. You can now see that when off the frog the two wheelsets pictured above actually sit 1mm further to the right.
So Fred, are LGB R1 turnouts designed for 40mm "back to back" - not even close.
Which brings us nicely back to the two solutions.
1. Attach a packing strip to all the diverging route check rails on the line to achieve the required " check gauge", as pointed out by Dunnyrail in post#13.
2. Modify the one loco by adjusting the "back to back" as dictated by the "check gauge" using the small washers on the axle. Then add larger diameter washers to thicken the back of the flange enough to negotiate the LGB turnouts.
Wow I do like the sound of my own keyboard!
 
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That is also why LGB uses flange bearing frogs, the wheel is supported by the flange, otherwise the wheel would typically drop into the overly large throat of the frog.

Now flange bearing frogs work ok if all your flanges are the same depth...

All these specs work together the track and wheel specs need to be in sync. You throw a narrow treaded wheel with a not deep enough flange and all goes to heck.

Greg
 

Rhinochugger

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I have to say I'm a bit surprised with Slater's - I'm not too surprised by their email response, but their products are generally in the top drawer.

Eeyore.boater made a play on the 16mm Association wording 'works well enough' but, as has already been noted, and as he himself confirms, the various manufacturers don't necessarily stick with any single set of standards.

The one standard that does seem to work, for me at least, with a variety of manufacturers' turnouts and crossings and with an even wider variety of wheel sets, is the back-to-back. Being a devout bodger, and not having a vernier, I usually resort to using the Mk1 eyeball and an LGB plastic wheelset as a standard guide. Wheels set by this method have routinely performed trouble free.

None of this helps, and I don't know how Fred's pal is going to overcome the problem. The chassis and gears are clearly made to suit the Slater's 1/4" axle, and I don't think they make a loco driver of that small diameter in their Gauge 1 range.

EDIT - there may be a suitable wheel in the 1:32 Gauge 1 range.
 

Eeyore.Boater

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Just thinking about Gregs comment on "flange bearing frog".
So packing the check rails definitely works; but my idea is a bit more experimental, so double sided tape on the bigger washer in the first instance.
I quite like the way the Gauge O Guild explain this stuff, some differing terminology, but excellent illustrations. Worth a look:
 

Rhinochugger

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Just thinking about Gregs comment on "flange bearing frog".
So packing the check rails definitely works; but my idea is a bit more experimental, so double sided tape on the bigger washer in the first instance.
I quite like the way the Gauge O Guild explain this stuff, some differing terminology, but excellent illustrations. Worth a look:
The diagram at 1.6 is pertinent (it won't copy).
 

Rhinochugger

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Thanks Greg - now, to my mind, that would indicate that the (Slater's) wheels treads on my 2-6-2 are adequate, so the thinner wheels that they've designed for the George England Ffestiniog Railway locos are a bit too thin for general G scale track (of whatever manufacture).

Given that the chassis and the gears are designed around their axles, I'd be tempted to enquire the wheel width of their 1:32 offerings.