Serial Function Control for ESU ECOS & Cab Control Command Stations

[LGB333]

Anyone know whether the ESU Ecos and the ESU Cab Control DCC Command Stations can support Serial Function Control for DCC decoders set for Serial Control for the older LGB factory installed analog sound boards?

A customer of mine also told me that the Marklin CS3+ Command Station does not have Serial Function Control capability. I realize that the Serial Control is not used much any more but there are still LGB hobbyists who want to convert their older LGB locomotives with the factory-installed analog sound boards to DCC using the decoder interface.

 

[1to3]

Massoth and the Piko G-Digital system handle Serial commands from early LGB decoders... I think those are the only two systems that still handle serial controls.

 

[LGB333]

Massoth and the Piko G-Digital system handle Serial commands from early LGB decoders... I think those are the only two systems that still handle serial controls.

Hi 1to3 - Thanks for your response. I have both the Piko DCC Command Station, made by Massoth, and the Massoth DCC Command Station and Navigator throttle and thoroughly familiar with their capabilities. But I have a customer who's trying to use the ESU ECOS Command Station he bought from me to control his older LGB locomotive with analog sound boards that require Serial Function Control......he's only gotten the F1 whistle to work.

Since I posted my question on this forum, I was informed by ESU LLC that neither the ECOS or Cab Control DCC Systems are not Serial Function Control capable. So that answers the question. However, the ESU 5XL DCC Sound Decoders which I install into customers' LGB locomotives do have a Serial Control Feature, so the ESU decoders can receive Serial Commands by certain DCC command stations but not the ESU units..........interesting dichotomy!

 

[PhilP]

With serial commands, the F1 command is sent 'n' times, which is why there is a delay between pressing the key on the throttle, and a response from the loci/decoder.

So pressing F1 twice, will normally activate the bell etc.

It is a little hit or miss, and requires a little practice (to get the timing right) but does work..

PhilP

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I've done the F1 sequence on my NCE system to run a serial decoder. Usually people only want whistle, sometimes bell, and they are usually not too many presses!

 

[LGB333]

With serial commands, the F1 command is sent 'n' times, which is why there is a delay between pressing the key on the throttle, and a response from the loci/decoder.

So pressing F1 twice, will normally activate the bell etc.

It is a little hit or miss, and requires a little practice (to get the timing right) but does work.

PhilP - Not all DCC systems capable of Serial Function Control work by pressing the F1 Key for all sounds........depends upon the DCC system and decoder installed in the LGB locomotive Interface. For example, I installed a Massoth L Driving/Function DCC Decoder into the Interface of an LGB 23252 Columbus Forney produced during 1998 - 2002 and couldn't get the sounds to activate with my Massoth DCC system. I contacted the Massoth Hotline who advised me to set in addition to CV49 Bit 0 to 1 for Parallel and Serial Function Data, to also set Bit3 to 8, Terminal A1 Output with Rapid Serial Pulses. After I did that the Columbus' analog sound board worked like a charm: F0= Lights; F1=Whistle (1 Toot); F2= Bell; F3= Smoker; F4= Sound On/Off; F5=Crossing Whistle; F7= Coal Shoveling; F8= Air Pump.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Normally I had to set the F1 key to "momentary", not latching on and off as is default.

you need an on/off sequence per keypress is what worked for me... normally it is a "toggle", press on... press again off... that could have been the issue.

Greg

 

[1to3]

With serial commands, the F1 command is sent 'n' times, which is why there is a delay between pressing the key on the throttle, and a response from the loci/decoder.

So pressing F1 twice, will normally activate the bell etc.

It is a little hit or miss, and requires a little practice (to get the timing right) but does work..

PhilP

I have always thought of it like an old rotary phone. The commands have further to go, so they take longer to activate.
But good to know about ECOS and others... plus the odd ESU compatibility with other systems, just not theirs.

(Side note: Not sure why I don't get notices about updates for weeks? Guess I don't check in here often enough.)

 

[palmerston]

Massoth used to do update services to parallel on certain loco's. Check thier old catalogus. I think they still do if asked.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

On a LGB loco?

Note that this thread is about using older LGB locos with decoders that have serial only functions.

So Massoth would upgrade an LGB loco?

Can you explain?

 

[palmerston]

Yep, this is from their 2006 catalog:

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Good thing that is only 16 years ago...

If you read carefully in the picture, only the 55021 decoder is mentioned for an update, and you had to send it in to Massoth.

Anyone have current data from Massoth? The fact that the 55021 decoder is no longer manufactured, I would be very surprised if they did a firmware update.

The op did not mention which decoders were in the target locos, but I suspect that the cost to open the loco and remove them and ship them and reinstall them is more costly than just replacing them with more modern decoders, i.e. the OP's customer does not want to spend money on the locos if possible.

Greg

 

[phils2um]

Normally I had to set the F1 key to "momentary", not latching on and off as is default.

you need an on/off sequence per keypress is what worked for me... normally it is a "toggle", press on... press again off... that could have been the issue.

I had to do just the opposite with my parallel only Märklin CS3 and the serial function pantographs on my early, six white dot label LGB Ge 4/4 III. I had to have the function key set to "switching function" in order to send a single pulse or string of single pulses to the decoder F1 output. If set for "momentary function" a double pulse or a string of double pulses was sent (2,4,6,8,...etc.). The "momentary function" could not trigger a function needing an odd number of pulses - which in my case is 3 pulses for the rear pantograph.

Granted my Ge 4/4 III does not have a LGB serial sound board and I've only tried controlling the loco with a Märklin CS3 so my solution may not apply in all situations. I'd try both settings if you are having trouble. Also, and most importantly make sure the function button you want to use for sending pulses is configured in the decoder to trigger the F1 output (or, if you are not using the F1 decoder output, whichever decoder function output you have connected to the A1 input of the loco interface board).

 

[palmerston]

Good thing that is only 16 years ago...

If you read carefully in the picture, only the 55021 decoder is mentioned for an update, and you had to send it in to Massoth.

Anyone have current data from Massoth? The fact that the 55021 decoder is no longer manufactured, I would be very surprised if they did a firmware update.

The op did not mention which decoders were in the target locos, but I suspect that the cost to open the loco and remove them and ship them and reinstall them is more costly than just replacing them with more modern decoders, i.e. the OP's customer does not want to spend money on the locos if possible.

Greg

Ive used this service twice for updating my Rukb's V51. Still way cheaper then fitting an XLS and the sound is the same. These older models are all fitted with bulky connectors so removing is easy.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Agreed, cheaper than buying a motor and sound decoder outright.

But the 55021 is not a sound decoder, and the XLS is, so are you comparing apples to oranges? I think so.

Replacing a 55021 with a motor only decoder would be cheaper than an XLS of course.

I would also submit that any loco old enough to have a 55021 decoder with a factory sound system could not hold a candle to a modern Massoth sound and motor decoder.

Greg

 

[palmerston]

The V51 is a 2 motor loco both dekoders 55021 or so, where removed (sold on) and an XL was fitted. Then you need to update the soundcard at the Massoth factory which i have done twice. I live next to Germany so postage wasnt expensive. The factory soundcards are as good as an XS (not available via Massoth) or an XLS. All in all cheaper and as good as an XLS and a 5 day turnaround for the soundcard and no soldering or fiddeling with wires.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So, I was unaware of this sound card you are talking about. Could you provide the LGB part number? Love to find a DCC sound card that is as good as an XLS but cheaper!

(maybe I am misunderstanding, upgrading the LGB sound card to parallel cheaper than buying new may be your point, which I get)

Still would like to know the LGB sound card model number you are comparing to.

Thanks, Greg

 

[palmerston]

Dont know, you will have to search or consult the exploded view of the RuKB V51 loco. Both locos and the Massoth CS where sold years ago.

 

[Zerogee]

So, I was unaware of this sound card you are talking about. Could you provide the LGB part number? Love to find a DCC sound card that is as good as an XLS but cheaper!

(maybe I am misunderstanding, upgrading the LGB sound card to parallel cheaper than buying new may be your point, which I get)

Still would like to know the LGB sound card model number you are comparing to.

Thanks, Greg

Greg, I think the misunderstanding is that folks are talking about LGB locos from around the turn of the millennium that already have factory-installed digital sound boards (serial only), which have then been DCC'd (either by LGB themselves or aftermarket) with 55020 or 55021 decoders. You can replace the two old decoders with a single XL, and if you're using a CS that still supports serial commands (eg Massoth) then the old serial sound board will still work just fine - but if you've got a type of CS that will only do Parallel, then you can (or could?) use the Massoth upgrade service to modify the factory sound board to accept parallel commands.

That's how I understand it, anyway....

Jon.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I was more reacting to the suggestion that people can have Massoth update old decoders.

then it was refined to say that the service is only for the 55021 decoders, but still better than a new XLS decoder.

So then when I asked, wait a 55021 is not a sound decoder, it was updated to some sound decoder that came with the loco, as of yet unnamed.

I was reacting to how this old sound decoder was as good as a modern Massoth XLS decoder, which I still find hard to believe, and now am thoroughly confused as to who is upgrading this unnamed sound decoder to parallel operation, or if it is even possible, and is the practice still supported by massoth.

It all started with the suggestion to contact Massoth to covert old systems to parallel, and the comparison of quality of sound.

Just still does not seem a current path that someone could take, and I have a hard time believing the result is better or even as good as a modern Massoth decoder with sound.

Greg