Purpose built train R/C

[tramcar trev]

Well, the various bits of kit I ordered on Friday arrived recorded delivery on Saturday. Very impressive service.

The bad news is that having tested the kit, it doesn't appear suitable for LGB motors. In brief, there is a lot of motor hum and I got some stuttering at low speed too. The effects are similar to those from early DCC chips were were not optimised for G scale motors, so I suspect it's frequency related. The effect may not occur with other manufacturer's motors, but I don't have any to test with.

The good news is that after I outlined the problem to the vendor via email, an immediate refund was provided, even before I have any chance to return the goods (which I will on Monday). I am very impressed with the vendor's business style even if the current version didn't fulfil my needs.

Well at least you tried.... I must brush up on brushed dc motors, I would have thought they were much the same in models at least, full size they can be series parallel wound etc.... Bachmann are "Skew wound" whatever that is.... The problem may be the ESC component. Can he supply a Tx and Rx where you supply a brushed ESC?
The vendor obviously has the clients needs at heart, most impressive.
So it's back to the Key fob controller with a diode across the output?

 

[Tony Walsham]

The humming from the motor will be caused by the PWM frequency of the motor driver output. If it growls it will be around 100 Hz and will not harm the motor.
As the PWM frequency rises so does the pitch of the noise. It will be about 5 KHz when it is a whistle which will disappear completely for most people when the PWM goes over 8 KHz.
It is not an easy matter to change the PWM frequency as that is usually defined in the software that runs the system.
Most modern ESC's (including RCS ESC's) designed for our trains use around 20 KHz PWM which cannot be heard by humans.

You could try padding the motor with foam to decrease the resonance but you will run the risk of the motor overheating if there is no cooling air around it at all.

 

[DaveB2]

1) Contact details are in the website quoted in the first post in this thread

Ahh, my fault I saw "BUY" and clicked there so found the retailers.

2) Programming isn't necessary for operation with the Tx22/ Rx60 or Rx61 combination I tried - it's wire up and play. Took me under 5 minutes and I'm Captain Slow on electronics.

That makes me happy, the video reminded me of some other electronic set-up programming I used to do that had a less than forgiving nature.

I'm not familiar with the LGB wiring looms you mention but as the cost saving is small I'd go that way too, I am tempted build one of the Tx kits though as the saving there buys another Rx and up until a few years ago a degree of electronic assembly was part of day to day work until I moved role so maybe it's time to dust off the old skills.

Thanks for your replies, if / when I get round to doing it, and assuming no-one else has updated on how it works on Bachmann a motor, I'll post the results.

Dave

 

[ge_rik]

I bought one of these units and a rx about the same time as Whatlep and after his experiences I didn't want to say anything until I'd had a chance to play with them.

Testing the system - so far so good - it works well with the two battery powered LGB motor blocks I've got but sometimes I have problems with my IP loco. I think it might be because the loco is drawing more than 1.5 amps as the mechanism is still a bit stiff. It gives me similar symptoms to that which Whatlep described but so far no problems at all with the LGB blocks - just makes me realise how well engineered they are. I had my 0-6-2 loco running all evening pulling a goods train round the circuit last night until the battery in the tx ran out. The rx can be set to 'cruise' but that requires either a DSM2 tx or the prog module to alter the default settings - neither of those I have at present.

I've been in correspondence with Dave T and he tells me he's planning to build a rx with a higher amp rating and a wider range of PWM frequencies. That might give the system a broader application.

If the weather clears up (rained here all day today) I'll get some video showing the system in action.

Rik

 

[ge_rik]

As promised a video overview of the Deltang system. Still got to do some more extensive trials but it seems to be reasonably reliable so far though I do still get the occasional glitch with my IP Engineering loco - can't work out if the issue is electrical or mechanical though.

video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JojDRCuAdo


Rik

 

[tramcar trev]

So.....For a not too horrendous outlay you seem to have bought quite a value for money set up..... Control looks impressive.... And just to clarify you're costs were? Unless you don't want your wife to find out of course.....

 

[trammayo]

Impressed with the system and your video Rik. Can you post details of your 12v power pack please?

Is the 12v running the TX/controller feeding that voltage - is it neccessary or can a lesser voltage be used?

The only reason I'm asking (apart from being a total dunce) is that I have used the little 3-6v drive units.

 

[ge_rik]

Hi Trev
I've done a more in-depth evaluation on my blog
http://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/evaluation-of-deltang-radio-control.html < Link To http://riksrailway.blogsp...ang-radio-control.html

but in summary - the transmitter is £58 and the receiver/controller is £29 (with wires attached) There is a kit for the tx (£25) which does not require micro soldering if you want to cut costs further. (see bottom of this page - http://www.deltang.co.uk/tx22-kit.h... wife to find out of course..... [/quote]

 

[ge_rik]

Hi Mick

Impressed with the system and your video Rik. Can you post details of your 12v power pack please?

In the green loco, the power is from a Chinese Blue Li-ion battery. In the black loco, the 12v is from 10 NiMh batteries. I've also used it with my railbus which is using 8 x AA alkaline batteries until another Chinese Blue arrives.

Is the 12v running the TX/controller feeding that voltage - is it neccessary or can a lesser voltage be used?

The only reason I'm asking (apart from being a total dunce) is that I have used the little 3-6v drive units.

The blurb says the system can run with anything from 3 - 16v. I've not tested with anything less than that as I don't have a set-up with less. I could lash up a test rig with a motor and 3 - 6v worth of batteries if you like and give you some feedback.

Rik
Edit - Just re-read your post and here's the answer your implicit question. The receiver runs off the same battery pack as you use for your motor (anything between 3 and 16v). There are just four wires to connect - two to the battery (red and black) and two to the motor (brown). You'll see in the video that I've used one of those screw terminal blocks. That's because I wanted to be able to swap over ESCs quickly for testing. Eventually, I'll solder the wires.

 

[trammayo]

Thanks for your prompt reply Rik. The TX and its set-up certainly seems the way to go (well spotted Trev).

If it could operate as low as 6v that would be great. It would also be useful for a couple of Big Haulers where the wheels are wearing (plenty of room for 12v in the tender).

So if you could test some time on 6v that would be appreciated - but there's no hurry. I've put the R/C projects in abeyance as I'm looking at other purchases

And I don't have a problem with terminal blocks - they allow a quick change of mind when experimenting. I only solder when satisfied things work and will be permanent

 

[CoggesRailway]

Rik, great video, looks good for small locos.
Can the programming allow selection of PWM frequencies, so as to suit different motors?

 

[ge_rik]

Rik, great video, looks good for small locos.
Can the programming allow selection of PWM frequencies, so as to suit different motors?

It looks as if that's possible but I've not had a chance to play with the programming side yet. He's redesigning the Prog1 module and I don't have a DSM2 transmitter (which can be used to programme the receiver chip).

My electronical knowledge is not sufficient to interpret what's on the website about this - maybe you can work it out - http://www.deltang.co.uk/rx6x-features.htm#m_pwm - Looks as if it will go up to 16kHz but only if the voltage is low (to avoid overheating??) The default is 60Hz.

I know he is planning to produce another receiver with a higher amp rating and a greater range of PWM settings. Might be worth dropping him a line and enquiring - dt@flyelectric.org.uk - I'd say the more enquiries be receives about this the more likely he is to work on it.

Rik
PS - on the programming page for the receiver ( http://www.deltang.co.uk/rx60a-v602...tes: * Default 2kHz / 16kHz: <400mA <8.5v

 

[CoggesRailway]

Thanks Rik, I was interested as this might resolve the LGB motor issue Peter spoke of...

I might just drop him a line a you suggest...

 

[PhilP]

Massoth etc. run PWM at 16kHz..

Crude, but effective, you can try a NON-POLARISED capacitor across the motor. - Smoothes the edges a bit and might help with the buzzing.
Do NOT use an electrolytic capacitor (or any marked with +/-) as these do not like (read bang!) reverse polarity.
PhilP
<Normal disclaimer>

 

[ge_rik]

Crude, but effective, you can try a NON-POLARISED capacitor across the motor. - Smoothes the edges a bit and might help with the buzzing.
PhilP
<Normal disclaimer>

Thanks Phil
I was wondering about that. The MFA Como gearbox motor I've used in my railbus comes with one already soldered across the motor terminals. Being a bit of a numpty on these sort of matters what value capacitance would you suggest - or is it a matter of trial and error? I have an assortment of caps left over when I once became enthusiastic about electronics and bought a few goody bags of mixed components. After failing miserably on my first couple of electronics projects I then became disheartened and so still have all sorts of bits and pieces knocking about in various boxes (I have a squirrel mentality and seldom throw anything away - one day that penny farthing and clockwork calculator may come in useful - etc).

Rik

 

[ge_rik]

If it could operate as low as 6v that would be great. It would also be useful for a couple of Big Haulers where the wheels are wearing (plenty of room for 12v in the tender).

So if you could test some time on 6v that would be appreciated - but there's no hurry. I've put the R/C projects in abeyance as I'm looking at other purchases

Hi Mick
Had a chance to test out the system with a low-powered loco. I've had a kit for an IP Engineering Lollypop railcar knocking around for ages and decided this was a good reason to blow off the dust and get it up and running.

It's designed to run on 3 - 6v so thought I'd try it first off with 3v. Although the website and blurb says the Deltang system will run with 3v I couldn't get it to work reliably. Sometimes the receiver responded but mostly it either set the motor running and then wouldn't stop or nothing happened at all.

I then upped the voltage to 4.5v and it was a different kettle of fish. Immediate results. Smooth control and no glitches on the bench. I tested it in the garden and found that it was fine though the range was greatly diminished (when compared with 12v) and was prone to being interfered-with by foliage etc. However, if you were to reset the default failsafe to cruise mode it wouldn't be so much of a problem.

Here's a quick, rough and ready video. Sorry about the bare-bones vehicle - not yet got around to detailing and painting it. Also the video is a bit shaky (in all respects) but hopefully gives you enough to go on.

video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSQyIevdFH4

I've not tested it with 6v - I think the IP motor would probably rattle itself to shreds if I did try, but I'd imagine that the range would increase and the signal reception would be stronger. I could give it a more in-depth trial if you like.

Rik

 

[trammayo]

Thank you very much for the quick responce and the time and effort you have put in Rik. As you so ably demonstrate, it has limitations on lower voltages but would seem to have great potential on 12 volt.

I think its a great option for the Bachmann locos, with worn wheels (I have four!), as just one replacement chassis exceeds the cost of this TX/RX combination.

I have bookmarked this thread as I will go down this road when my finances improve!

I need to review my needs which, at the moment, are concentrated (to the exclusion of my garden line) on the trailer layout. As I'm analogue, the ability to use a radio control loco (inter-alia with the track powered stuff) - shunting or whatever - seems (is) attractive.

I might rethink my scratch build strategy and use the Como motor/gearbox units more to take advantage of this TX.

Once again, thanks for your help

 

[gregh]

My only concern is that the controller is limited to 1.5 amps and I think this is why my IP Engineering loco sometimes gets the sulks. However, I need to do a few more tests (ie with a meter) to figure out the exact cause. Other times (as in the video) it works OK - though a bit clunkily - which it does with my other controller (Mac 5).
Rik

I would just add a note of caution about the rating. I quote it below.
"The motor output (H1) can supply up to 1.5A when the motor is stalled at 100% throttle."
This seems to me to say it can withstand a 1.5amp current for a short time, but I'd wonder if it's really rated for 1.5amps continuous.
I'd also be very wary of what happens when (if) you do get a stalled motor or short circuit condition. You need some protection (fuse?) rated at 1.5 amps.
The stalled current of 1.5amps is typical of smaller scales which this seems to be aimed at. But our size motors and batteries have a much higher current than this.

 

[ge_rik]

I would just add a note of caution about the rating. I quote it below.
"The motor output (H1) can supply up to 1.5A when the motor is stalled at 100% throttle."
This seems to me to say it can withstand a 1.5amp current for a short time, but I'd wonder if it's really rated for 1.5amps continuous.
I'd also be very wary of what happens when (if) you do get a stalled motor or short circuit condition. You need some protection (fuse?) rated at 1.5 amps.
The stalled current of 1.5amps is typical of smaller scales which this seems to be aimed at. But our size motors and batteries have a much higher current than this.

Thanks for the clarification Greg. I've been using an auto reset fuse rated at 1.6A which is the one which Brian Jones sells with his Mac Five controller. (Product AK08J from Maplin - http://www.maplin.co.uk/auto-reset-circuit-breakers-493 < Link To http://www.maplin.co.uk/a...t-circuit-breakers-493 ). The next one down in this series is 1.0A. I'm wondering now if it might be better to go for the 1A on this set-up to give a margin of error.

He is planning to produce a higher rated receiver/controller with a wider range of PWM settings - but I'm not sure how imminent that is. If others are interested it might be worth sending him an email via his website enquiring after this - presumably the more enquiries he gets the more likely he is to produce it.

Rik

 

[gregh]

Thanks for the clarification Greg. I've been using an auto reset fuse rated at 1.6A which is the one which Brian Jones sells with his Mac Five controller. (Product AK08J from Maplin - http://www.maplin.co.uk/auto-reset-circuit-breakers-493 < Link To http://www.maplin.co.uk/a...t-circuit-breakers-493 ). The next one down in this series is 1.0A. I'm wondering now if it might be better to go for the 1A on this set-up to give a margin of error.
He is planning to produce a higher rated receiver/controller with a wider range of PWM settings - but I'm not sure how imminent that is. If others are interested it might be worth sending him an email via his website enquiring after this - presumably the more enquiries he gets the more likely he is to produce it.
Rik

I'd say the 1.6A is OK. I think you got it right first go! If you go down to 1A, you're likely to get it operting for normal loco currents.
(I couldn't find the maplin page you referenced above, so couldn't check the specs.)