Point and Signal Rodding

LGB-Sid

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Is anybody on here using Brass rod to control points or signals ? after buying two LGB point Motors and deciding they are really ugly things sat next to a set of points , I was thinking that if I use rodding I can then hide the motors or at least put them where I want them, plus if I am clever enough to work it out one Motor could control its points and assiociated signal. or if I was really clever one switch could control two sets of points that allow a cross over from one track to the other, as they always switch together :)

points.jpg
 

dunnyrail

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Is anybody on here using Brass rod to control points or signals ? after buying two LGB point Motors and deciding they are really ugly things sat next to a set of points , I was thinking that if I use rodding I can then hide the motors or at least put them where I want them, plus if I am clever enough to work it out one Motor could control its points and assiociated signal. or if I was really clever one switch could control two sets of points that allow a cross over from one track to the other, as they always switch together :)

View attachment 283465
Controlling 2 points with 1 switch is not that tricky to do, just use the bellcranks to swop the movement direction and you are all set. Looking at shat you have been doing a 3D print with effectively 2 arms on the same plane (just wider with duplicated holes) will send the action the other way.
 

LGB-Sid

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Thanks probably didn't ask the question correctly, I was thinking more does it work outside rather than how to connect together, The LGB switch connects on a very short arm direct to the points so hot or cold won't really effect the length of the arm, but 2mm brass rodding with printed parts will expand and contract, which is why I wondered if anybody had done this outside, and if is is reliable.
 

dunnyrail

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Thanks probably didn't ask the question correctly, I was thinking more does it work outside rather than how to connect together, The LGB switch connects on a very short arm direct to the points so hot or cold won't really effect the length of the arm, but 2mm brass rodding with printed parts will expand and contract, which is why I wondered if anybody had done this outside, and if is is reliable.
I did it donkeys years ago on my line in Luton using 10mm levers to operate 2 x Peco points in a crossover. Location was in full sun but never noticed any issues of points not changing with the wire I used that I think was hard steel. Everything was screwed including wire guides (brass tubes soldered to brass bases) to Concrete paving slabs that were the baseboard. A dab of oil each year kept things moving and the only rust on the wire was where there had not been any application of oil. I should state that the line was all live steam and battery powered.
 

LGB-Sid

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For any signalmen on here a couple of questions in the real World :-
When you pull a lever in a signal box, does it push or pull the rod that is leaving the box ? I know you can then change its direction with cranks etc.
Would a junction like the one below be one leaver to operate both points or two levers in a box ?

Just curious :) as I could connect these two together and then run one rod to the box ( bottom left) or I can run both two the box as below , they both will operate from a single LGB motor in the base of the signal box.

points2.jpg
 

dunnyrail

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For any signalmen on here a couple of questions in the real World :-
When you pull a lever in a signal box, does it push or pull the rod that is leaving the box ? I know you can then change its direction with cranks etc.
Would a junction like the one below be one leaver to operate both points or two levers in a box ?

Just curious :) as I could connect these two together and then run one rod to the box ( bottom left) or I can run both two the box as below , they both will operate from a single LGB motor in the base of the signal box.

View attachment 283654
Yes it was quite common practice to operate 2 points from 1 lever. Not so sure about interlocking though likely 1 separate lever for both points as well. Though if inky one line has passenger traffic then there would inly be one interlocking for the main passenger line. However shunt signals if there were any would each have a lever as they would be giving quite opposing directives, same for signals.

Sequence of changing a double crossover point would be, reverse locking lever change point then put locking lever back to normal, then any relevant signals could be pulled off. To get all back to normal would be the exact reverce of those instructions.
 

LGB-Sid

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Yes it was quite common practice to operate 2 points from 1 lever. Not so sure about interlocking though likely 1 separate lever for both points as well. Though if inky one line has passenger traffic then there would inly be one interlocking for the main passenger line. However shunt signals if there were any would each have a lever as they would be giving quite opposing directives, same for signals.

Sequence of changing a double crossover point would be, reverse locking lever change point then put locking lever back to normal, then any relevant signals could be pulled off. To get all back to normal would be the exact reverce of those instructions.

Thanks :)
 

DafyddElvy

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Yes it was quite common practice to operate 2 points from 1 lever. Not so sure about interlocking though likely 1 separate lever for both points as well. Though if inky one line has passenger traffic then there would inly be one interlocking for the main passenger line. However shunt signals if there were any would each have a lever as they would be giving quite opposing directives, same for signals.

Sequence of changing a double crossover point would be, reverse locking lever change point then put locking lever back to normal, then any relevant signals could be pulled off. To get all back to normal would be the exact reverce of those instructions.
A much simplified reply to the one in my head, but then I look at things not from a signallers view but from and installer/maintainers point of view.
I'll get in to details because their is no one answer to your question, but the lever in the signal box must both push and pull the point prodding depending depending on which direction the points are being changed from, when a level is in the away from you (normal) position the points would be set for the main route.
I have seen once where a set of points and a trap were outside the signal box a very rare arrangement where one lever would disengage the facing point lock (FPL), through the points and then re-engage the FPL, normal practice would be for this to require two levers.

Generally the way signalling works in practice is if your scenario is A+B+E you install X, if the scenario is A+B+G you install Y, in very simplified terms.

I will now go away and stop confusing the matter :)

David
 

LGB-Sid

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If I was standing in the box in front of the lever frame and pulled the lever, then the rod running at 90 deg to the tracks leaving the box, would push away from the box to a crank and then to the rodding ? but if when I pull the lever the rod running at 90 deg to the tracks pulls from outside to inside the box then when you return the lever to the normal position then both points would set to the main routes. I know it doesn't matter for my setup, but its a bit like rivet counting once you start looking at it, you begin to wonder how things actually work :) and you definitionally lost me with A+B+ E etc.
:rofl: :rofl:
 

dunnyrail

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If I was standing in the box in front of the lever frame and pulled the lever, then the rod running at 90 deg to the tracks leaving the box, would push away from the box to a crank and then to the rodding ? but if when I pull the lever the rod running at 90 deg to the tracks pulls from outside to inside the box then when you return the lever to the normal position then both points would set to the main routes. I know it doesn't matter for my setup, but its a bit like rivet counting once you start looking at it, you begin to wonder how things actually work :) and you definitionally lost me with A+B+ E etc.
:rofl: :rofl:
To help understand some more, a look at some Signal Box Diagrams which show Box Diagrams and all the point numbers may be a big help. A look at what coloured levers do what both on as well google will help enlighten you considerably.
 

LGB-Sid

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I have googled it for hours but still can not answer the basic question , when you pull a lever does it pull the link connected to the bottom of that lever or push it :) I think from looking at poor pics of of lever frames it pulls it :)

And I powered my links with one LGB drive and it does move both points and all the links I was begining to think the motor would not have enough strength to move it all.
 

DafyddElvy

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I'll behave this time.

Signal Box is a good site for signalling information.

As for the levers, when the lever in the frame is away from the signaller the route should be set for the main route, in the case of of a crossover, when the lever is placed away from the signaller the points should be set for the main line(s), when the lever is pulled it would set the route for the crossover. I hope that helps.


David
 

JimmyB

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I'll behave this time.

Signal Box is a good site for signalling information.

As for the levers, when the lever in the frame is away from the signaller the route should be set for the main route, in the case of of a crossover, when the lever is placed away from the signaller the points should be set for the main line(s), when the lever is pulled it would set the route for the crossover. I hope that helps.


David
So are you saying when you pull the lever, it is the route that matters, and not the direction of travel of the rods.
 

dunnyrail

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Never quite looked at this in so much detail before modelling wise, but I think we are getting a little confused about how a signal box works. Inside and below the levers are all sorts of rods and tappets. The push when the lever is pulled is not necessarily what will happen when the wire or rod exits the box as that movement is converted to an up or down movement within the frame then the “tapits” that create the locking do both back forwards and left right to create the locking required. It is all very tricky to get ones head around inside the frame. Have a look at this Google to see.

signal box interlocking pictures

The one at Banbury is a vertical locking frame but a mini frame within St.Albans Box has a flat mounted frame. So what we are trying to achieve within our mini world is worlds apart from what occurs in the real thing except for perhaps a ground frame which is more akin to where we are. Here the lever when pulled for off would create a push but that could very quickly be converted to a pull depending on the requirement at the point or signal or even the run out to the device due to routing through tracks.
 

DafyddElvy

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Yes
When the lever is away from the signaller it is said to be in it's normal position, when the lever is pulled towards the signaller it is referred to as being in the reverse position.

Because the rodding needs to both pull and push it's less relevant, although generally speaking the rodding is pulled to change the points from the main or normal route.


David
 

LGB-Sid

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Thanks for all the reply's, Once you start to look in to it what seems a very simply system it was quite complex really , when you start to look at the interlocks that were involved along with compensation for rod expansion, its quite fascinating but I,m just going to settle for theirs rods going into my signal box and track level and there is a man and lever frame above and Magic happens below in between the two :)
 

Paul M

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If you go to Sheringham signal box, you can play with the levers.
 

DafyddElvy

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Slight deviation from rodding, did you know that signal boxes are structural generally are quite weak structures, they get most of their strength from the lever support frame and lever frame itself.

David
 

dunnyrail

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Slight deviation from rodding, did you know that signal boxes are structural generally are quite weak structures, they get most of their strength from the lever support frame and lever frame itself.

David
That makes a lot of sence in a way as you would need to make the box as lightweigh as possible to take all of the kit that needs to be stuffed inside. This explains why bixes were picked up and transported to other places where perhaps a box with its location had grown i. Size requiring more levers that could be fitted in the existing box. I have just read the history of the Taunton - Minehead line and there were a few box changes nited in the text as the line grew in importance.
 

DafyddElvy

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That makes a lot of sence in a way as you would need to make the box as lightweigh as possible to take all of the kit that needs to be stuffed inside. This explains why bixes were picked up and transported to other places where perhaps a box with its location had grown i. Size requiring more levers that could be fitted in the existing box. I have just read the history of the Taunton - Minehead line and there were a few box changes nited in the text as the line grew in importance.
And when junctions were reduced in size or complexity the old signal box would stay with the number of in use levers reduced.

I'm by experience a power person but after spending time on multi discipline projects and then managing signalling upgrade and renewal projects one tends to pick up all sorts of useless information.
If anyone tries to tell you signalling is a black art its gollywoggle, signalling is like a flow chart but with lots of different combinations of scena