Paycar possibilities?

[trammayo]

Right, following Tim Brien's posting on his Baldwin 1890's steam railcoach, my questions, his answers and particularly Robs pic of a "Paycar", I decide to investigate if I could make a representation of the Paycar. Although no measurements have been posted, I reckon it was probably 40ft or so long. To scale that down, with one rigid frame and only a truck at the back end, it would certainly not go round R1's

I thought I might be able to introduce articulation into the equation, so I've spent some time in the shed mocking up something that I might be able to base a model on.

First a copy of Rob's pic (sorry its poor quality - you will have to look at the original posting if you want to see it better!).

Then my attempts to come up with something!

 

[trammayo]

I'd blown up the pic to nearly the size I wanted over two sheets of landscape A4.

I had a couple of goes at the pivot point for the articulation and added the side members to get an idea of how it would look. I cut them shorter because they might foul the motion and they would nearly touch the boiler.

Has anybody have any better ways of getting this round R1's?

 

[musket the dog]

What if you were to mount the trailing bogey on an arm, and then to the chassis? Or give the bogey a little bit of lateral movement?

 

[Tim Brien]

I have built several examples with a trailing arm attached bogie (truck) and while the results are 'acceptable' on ten foot diameter curves, R1's would see so much overhang through the curves that the car may be liable to topple off the rails.

Articulation is the only method that will retain stability. I feel that more reliable operation would be attained using a 'tender' drive' with a powered truck under the car driving the 'locomotive'. A single axle drive most likely would slip traversing R1's. With a powered truck, weight could be added in the rear, over the truck.

 

[Miamigo259]

You could always make an armoured self-propelled one like this....................!

 

[trammayo]

What if you were to mount the trailing bogey on an arm, and then to the chassis? Or give the bogey a little bit of lateral movement?

To be honest, I'd thought of that but, before I started I got a Bachmann coach out to measure its "swept path". My mock-up doesn't exceed that envelope - comes well within it actually - which is important for my trailer layout! Even the marker lights on a caboose cause problems - no fall pipes left on the loco shed

 

[trammayo]

I have built several examples with a trailing arm attached bogie (truck) and while the results are 'acceptable' on ten foot diameter curves, R1's would see so much overhang through the curves that the car may be liable to topple off the rails.

Articulation is the only method that will retain stability. I feel that more reliable operation would be attained using a 'tender' drive' with a powered truck under the car driving the 'locomotive'. A single axle drive most likely would slip traversing R1's. With a powered truck, weight could be added in the rear, over the truck.

What I have found with single axle and large diameter wheels is that they bind a little on the curves (my freelance railcar) because of the increased contact area of the flanges. I would like to have the loco as the prime mover if that was possible (in operational terms) as the motor would fit nicely in the firebox.

Its going to be a compromise whatever I do but I think the two biggest ones will be leaving enough space in the cab front for the boiler to move and, of course the boards forward of that front can be no wider than 20mm to allow that same movement.

I did measure up for the power train to swivel like a Mason Bogie but the overhang (or the displacement of the "bogie"), beggared belief!

So, with basic principles established, it remains a winter project. From an eye level side view it won't look too bad (modelling skills excepted) but from a plan view it'll look slightly odd going round curves. If it doesn't work out I 'll save it for the garden line!

I'll start by making the rear truck I think. Thanks for your suggestions by the way!

 

[trammayo]

You could always make an armoured self-propelled one like this....................!

I like that - Securicor on rails! Where is that based? That would certainly have no problems and would be a lot easier to build! I'll file that for future reference!

The reason why I chose this particular Paycar was I wanted to build a steam outline US railcoach that might pull a freight or passenger car if required. Unfortunately for me, I'm like a kid in a sweet shop - want everything! I just chose something that might look right and wouldn't be out of place with all the various Big Haulers I run.

Plus, its got to be robust enough to survive being transported over some of the roughest roads in Ireland (and hundreds - 1300 ths year - of miles).

Thankyou for posting!

 

[Miamigo259]

You could always make an armoured self-propelled one like this....................!

I like that - Securicor on rails! Where is that based? That would certainly have no problems and would be a lot easier to build! I'll file that for future reference!

Thankyou for posting!

It's preserved by the Argentine Railway Club (Ferroclub Argentino) at their Escalada preservation site in Buenos Aires.
It was built in 1941 by Buxton & Co of Buenos Aires and was originally powered by a Bedford lorry engine. I think the original owner was the Buenos Aires Great Southern Railway. The group had just restored it when I visited their Museum in November 2007. It has its own turntable built into the underframe which can be lowered onto the track, so it can be turned in its own length!

The Ferroclub website http://www.ferroclub.org.ar/ < Link To www.ferroclub.org.ar has got some dimensioned line drawings on it of this vehicle - though their site seems to be "down" at the moment.

 

[trammayo]

Thankyou for that - ingenious and fascinating. I was (ungraciously perhaps) going to ask was it made for bandit territory - now I know!

 

[C&S]

Its going to be a compromise whatever I do but I think the two biggest ones will be leaving enough space in the cab front for the boiler to move and, of course the boards forward of that front can be no wider than 20mm to allow that same movement.

Looking at the picture of the car on thew R1 curve - how would it be if the footboards attached to the side members were wedge shaped (20mm at the front and the maximum possible to allow the needed swing at the back). Then add another set of wedge shaped pieces - with the wedges tapering the other way (i.e. outwards) fixed to the boiler and as close below the other footboards as possible.

Still is a compromise, but perhaps not as much as two thin boards, and it would cover the entire footboard area when running "straight" or on gentle curves. If I haven't explained what I mean clearly let me know and I'll attach a diagram.

 

[robsmorgan]

Thankyou for that - ingenious and fascinating. I was (ungraciously perhaps) going to ask was it made for bandit territory - now I know!

Morning Mick, been cleaning up my PC files for a day - sorry for delay in replying with a pic, but this is the way I mounted the motor block in my 'Goose' ...... Heath-Robinson perhaps but it works well on 10ft diameter loops.... n.b. ended up cutting much more of the floor away to allow for the motor's trailing end to swing than I originally anticipated

Best of luck
Rob

 

[trammayo]

Hi Giles - yes that is a good idea (never thought of that!). In my case, because of the car frame, the boiler-attached floor would have to be above because of the width of the frame (clearance on curve "boiler to outside edge of frame" is 20mm and 40mm on straight).

I was thinking of slicing horizontally through the boiler and making the boards full width - now you might have changed my plans!

 

[trammayo]

Hi Rob - yes I can see your predicament with the floor level. In the theory my problem is out in the open - your pivot point is the similar to mine as regards to the loco (which is my articulation point). However, moving the swivel point of the bogie for me was ruled out with clearance tests - the rear of the car would hang over two much and my layout is so tight for space on curves (and straights).

I am still seriously considering making an interurban out of a JS coach - just need to make a power truck to directly replace the normal car truck (maybe with rear overhanging motor).

BTW - never noticed your or Giles' postings until now - sorry for not replying sooner. And I've ordered stripwood, brass rod and other stuff so its a definate build

 

[Tim Brien]

Mick,
I have adapted several B'mann J&S underframes to take the Aristo centre cab drive block. The J&S truck sideframe may be cut down and attached to the Aristo drive block saddle mount. Similar mount method may be used for other drive blocks.

 

[trammayo]

Hi Tim. I can see the practicalities of what you have done but does it allow enough swing for R1 curves. I think Mike (Beavercreek) uses the same truck for his "booster" stock cars.

 

[Jerry Barnes]

Robb, you are showing some real ingenuity on this. I'm learning some stuff, these forums are sure good for that.

 

[Tim Brien]

Mick,
I do not 'engineer' anything for R1 curves, but assuming sufficient swing clearances, then the basic setup could be adapted for a power truck drive. As you have found already 'offset' pivot point swinging does exaggerate the amount of swing required.

 

[robsmorgan]

Thanks for your generous comment Jerry! I just like experimenting and getting results as cheaply as possible - retirement = shorter pockets!!!

Rob

 

[trammayo]

Right, I haven't been idle but had other things to do. I made a start on making a truck as I have none spare and need two pair for another project as well.

I used a car number plate - about 4mm thick perspex - and cut the sides out with a scroll saw before drilling holes for further cutouts. The cutouts were dressed using warding files. Overlays were made from an old CD box lid, and the axle boxes from two pieces of number plate glued together and cut to size.

The tie bars are from 1.5mm brass rod (holes drilled in truck frame and glued in). Springs from salvage (trigger spray bottles) and wound around the perspex.

Need to make the bolster, rudimentary brake rigging etc. Also need to arrange electrical pick-up. I think I will mount the coupling from an extension on the bogie (was considering mounting a swivel under the body). Usual apologies with regards pics.