MTS III? Massoth? Piko?

[Railfan]

I have a LGB MTS III central station 55006 (NIB). I also have a 10 Amp 50100 Jumbo power supply. I want to buy either the Massoth wireless receiver and Navigator or the Piko version of them. I don't have track down yet, but am working on changes to the garden to lay track this summer. I have looked at some of the other DCC systems and have decided that the above would be what I want. (BTW, I have recently acquired a used, ten year old Digitrax system, but don't think I will use it). And I have read through the thread at: http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?m=92180 < Link To http://www.gscalecentral..../tm?m=92180 I still have some questions related to what I already have.

Questions:
1. Should I keep the MTS III and use it or buy the Massoth 800Z or Piko central station and sell the MTS III? Are there any advantages of the Massoth/Piko system over the MTS III system?

2. Should I use the (adjustable) Jumbo power supply to supply the 5 Amps max. to whichever of the MTS III/Massoth/Piko central station I choose, or just buy a cheap 5 Amp supply? I do plan on using the Jumbo to run some of my Accucraft locos that are analog only so I will keep it no matter what I decide on the CS.

3. Other than the ability to update the Massoth system that the Piko can't do, are there any other known differences between the two? The Piko is significantly cheaper than the Massoth. I have heard of some problems updating the Massoth central station. Has anyone had any experience with that? Other problems? Does being able to update really matter?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Zerogee]

Depends on your budget, George. If you have the funds to go Massoth the whole way straight off (800Z or 1200Z, plus a Navigator and wireless receiver), then that's probably the best option possible.
If money is a little tighter and you want to spread it out a bit, then I'd use your MTS3 station and get a Massoth Navigator for it - you'll also need the Massoth wireless receiver, as it is different from the LGB MTS one. Then you can always sell the MTS3 later and go up to a Massoth central station if/when you want to.
You should certainly be able to power either the MTS3 or an 800Z off your Jumbo, I think - and if you;re keeping the Jumbo anyway, then that makes sense.
Does anyone on here actually have hands-on experience of the Piko system yet? Their central station is relatively cheap, yes, but their version of the Navigator seems to do less than the Massoth one but cost more...!

Jon.

 

[whatlep]

My 2p worth below

Questions:
1. Should I keep the MTS III and use it or buy the Massoth 800Z or Piko central station and sell the MTS III? Are there any advantages of the Massoth/Piko system over the MTS III system?

Purely a budget question, unless there is a "killer app" for you in the Massoth system. Either of the Massoth central stations is a very large lump of money to hand over, compared to - for example - your existing MTS III plus a 50090 booster. Do you really need 8-12 Amps worth of power on your layout is a good starting question. Would your existing MTSIII plus a 50090 booster satisfy your likely needs (works for me, for example...).

GSCers views on MTSIII vs. Massoth/Piko tend to be polarised by what each user is used to and their specific needs (or possibly their pockets). Having tried both, I have stuck with LGB MTS because there are no advantages for me in moving to Massoth (and one rather esoteric thing Massoth can't do concerning double-heading locos which MTS can). The best possible answer is to visit layouts using each system, draw up a list of "must haves" and "nice to haves" and figure it out for yourself, taking into account your budget.

2. Should I use the (adjustable) Jumbo power supply to supply the 5 Amps max. to whichever of the MTS III/Massoth/Piko central station I choose, or just buy a cheap 5 Amp supply? I do plan on using the Jumbo to run some of my Accucraft locos that are analog only so I will keep it no matter what I decide on the CS.

Keep the Jumbo. It has enough power to run both an MTSIII plus 50090 booster if you go that way, or a Massoth 800Z if you go that route. If you are very well funded, you could go to a Massoth 1200Z and sell the MTS central station, but since you have to keep Jumbo (presumably a standalone circuit forthe Accucraft locos, or swappable DCC/DC power?) that doesn't seem hugely cost-effective.

3. Other than the ability to update the Massoth system that the Piko can't do, are there any other known differences between the two? The Piko is significantly cheaper than the Massoth. I have heard of some problems updating the Massoth central station. Has anyone had any experience with that? Other problems? Does being able to update really matter?

I assume you mean the central stations. Piko's is designed to be a direct alternative to MTSIII and has 5 amp output maximum. It's exact capacities have not yet been made clear, to the best of my knowledge. Massoth's central stations have more potential output, but then we are back to question 1's response: "do you really need the extra power?".

 

[mike]

buy the massoth ,your worth it, and it will last a lifetime...

 

[muns]

For the time being I would stay with the MTSIII (by all means power it with the Jumbo if you dont have the LGB 550111 transformer), buy a Massoth Wireless Navigator and reciever and use them in conjunction with the MTSIII central station.

You can allways move to a Massoth central station at a later date (keeping the navigator and receiver) but as you are in the states, ignore the 1200Z as its not available (I think the 1210Z is the US alternative).

 

[Railfan]

Thanks for the data and advice. A friend has a large layout that is RhB and runs locos similar to what I would run. He has a Massoth system with two navigators. Everything seems to run very well. When I ask him what he thinks of the system, he says that if he were doing it now he would get the Piko system which is pretty much the same for a lot less.

A Massoth wireless system here in the States discounted is about $1540 (£950). The Piko system is about $612 (£376). That is a big difference. If I just add to my MTS III a wireless remote and receiver the Massoth would be $600 (£369) and the Piko $430 (£260).

 

[Railfan]

I'll be at the Big Train Show this weekend in Ontario, California. I will be talking to the largest Massoth US dealer at the show. He also sells Piko.

Besides his recommendations on the MTS III/Massoth/Piko systems, I'll see if I can find out what is happening with Massoth in the US. I recently received a notice that the US distributor is no longer affiliated with Massoth.de. Massoth plans to make an announcement about their US plans later this month. In the meantime, everything seems to be up in the air. I should be able to wait for the dust to settle as my track isn't down yet and I have some time before I need to resolve the DCC system.

 

[muns]

As soon as I hear anything from the guys in Germany regarding the US situation I will post it on the forum (there is a seporate thread about it).

 

[Railfan]

Thanks, Mark.

 

[Railfan]

Sorry for the delay on updating what I ended up doing after the Big Train Show. (As soon as I returned from the show I had to get ready for a vacation in Hawaii). There was a vendor at the BTS that is a dealer for both Massoth and Piko and he had an operating layout run by the Piko system. I talked with him and others about the MTS III Massoth Piko question of which way to go. One of the fellows I talked to lives near me and has a Massoth layout. He says he would get the Piko if it had been available then or if he was buying now.

So, the consensus was, purchase the complete Piko system which is much cheaper than the Massoth, keep the LGB Jumbo power supply to run my analog trains, and sell the NIB MTS III central station. I purchased the Piko system at the show for a substantial discount and received it about a week later. Since I don't have track down (and have been gone) I haven't been able to try the Piko system out. But I can take it over to a friend's if I want to run stuff and he can help with the programming if I need it. I'll put the MTS III up for sale when I can get to it.

If you need to see pictures of the Piko connectors, etc., let me know and I'll post them.

 

[whatlep]

If you need to see pictures of the Piko connectors, etc., let me know and I'll post them.

Yes please! So far only CAD images have been available. A few pictures would be very helpful, as would your thoughts after a month or so of using the Piko kit.

 

[Railfan]

I'll try to get pictures of the units tonight or tomorrow and post them here. The actual design of the central station is beautifully done. I'll also take a look at my pictures of the BTS and see if I have any other good pictures of the units.

 

[mbendebba]

George: If you currently have the LGB central station and the jumbo, I would advice against the Piko central station. You would not gain anything by doing it. I do, however, agree with Mark (muns) on getting the Massoth wireless Navigator and receiver. The price of the pair is pretty close to the Piko. Right now you get the Massoth navigator and receiver for about $558, or less depending on where you buy. Technical support for the Massoth product is second to none and in the event that a mishap, you are more likely to get fast and effective repairs from Massoth. The Massoth products can be updated and the updates are availabe to download from their website.
Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com < Link To www.allaboutlgb.com

 

[Tim Brien]

I have purchased the Piko system and expect delivery later this week. I have no affiliation wity a manufacturer annd offer my advice based on what I wanted from a DCC syste. Firstly, the Piko enabled me to purchase an analogue controller as well and use the Piko cab as both DCC and analogue. Secondly, for the price difference one must expect that the Piko is 'dumbed down'. Massoth licenced the software and cab (Navigator) to Piko. The Piko Navigator does not have illuminated numerical buttons. I will not be operating in pitch darkness so do not see this as an issue. The Piko Navigator and wireless will apparently work with the MTS system.

Funny how the LGB system only ever provided 5 amps and LGB fans thought that it was the 'ants pants of operating systems. Massoth upped the ante with their greater than 5 amps because they were not registering the system as a 'toy'. Piko offers the 5 amp system and all of a sudden 5 amps is not enough!

The whole debate stems from one's preferences for particular manufacturers. If the Piko did not have the wireless analogue facility then I would have purchased a 10 amp NCE wireless system. The Piko will do what I want. I want a basic operating system to run trains. I will not be consisting and delving into all the fine details that a powerful operating system such as Massoth or Zimo are capable of. The Piko is marketted towards the LGB MTS railroader who wants to upgrade from their type 3 MTS.

Not everyone wants the most expensive, that is why there are still basic automobiles and expensive luxury cars. They still do the same basic function! A 'basic' Massoth system (800) would have cost me over $3000, to outlay without including any decoders. The Piko with analague controller as well, cost me $850 including the cost of shipping from the States. The same item locally would have cost me $1550 plus postage, around $50. As someone just starting out, I would rahter not fork out $3000 to get something I could not even scratch the surface of regarding capabilities of the sytem. Time for a reality check. Not everyone has surplus money to throw around. The Piko may be my first and it may be my last operating system. I want to learn DCC operation and the Piko filled in all the squares for simplicity and ability.

 

[mbendebba]

Tim: I am shocked to learn that an 800Z Massoth system costs $3000 dollars where you are (Australia, right). Not too many people in the US would buy it at that price either. Fortunately, we do not have to pay those kind of prices here, a complete sytem can be had for about half that amount ($1560 according to George) . I wonder what kind of prices you pay LGB products.

 

[mbendebba]

George: I should have kept my mouth shut, I did not read all of your post before putting my 2 cents in.
Mohammed

 

[Zerogee]

I think that some of the (slight) perceived negativity towards the Piko system is due to the fact that it is so new, and no-one has posted any proper reviews of it (certainly not on here - if anyone has links to some elsewhere, please post them!). Piko has also had a few issues with its products in the past, including its electronics (though so have almost all the other manufacturers, of course, at different times) so this all adds up to the fact that the Piko system is, as yet, an unknown and unproven quantity.

I for one am eagerly awaiting reports from those of you who have been brave enough to take the plunge and become "early adopters" of the new system; I'm hoping it all works well, and I'm sure that once it has been out for a year or two and become established in the marketplace then it will be looked at rather differently from now.

Jon.

 

[WillemD]

I think that some of the (slight) perceived negativity towards the Piko system is due to the fact that it is so new, and no-one has posted any proper reviews of it (certainly not on here - if anyone has links to some elsewhere, please post them!).

http://gscalereview.com/piko.html contains a link to a review by the German magazine "GartenbahnProfi".

 

[Zerogee]

I think that some of the (slight) perceived negativity towards the Piko system is due to the fact that it is so new, and no-one has posted any proper reviews of it (certainly not on here - if anyone has links to some elsewhere, please post them!).

http://gscalereview.com/piko.html contains a link to a review by the German magazine "GartenbahnProfi".

Thanks for that, but is there an English translation of it anywhere....?

Jon.

PS: actually, what WOULD be useful: could you just tell us what it says in the "plus and minus" box on the third page of that review?

 

[whatlep]

I think that some of the (slight) perceived negativity towards the Piko system is due to the fact that it is so new, and no-one has posted any proper reviews of it (certainly not on here - if anyone has links to some elsewhere, please post them!).

http://gscalereview.com/piko.html contains a link to a review by the German magazine "GartenbahnProfi".

For anyone who can't quite read the small print from that linked page, or simply can;t read German, the review is overwhelmingly positive toward the new Piko system. Some key points:
1) The system is clearly identified as Massoth with implied Massoth quality and reliability. The Piko Navigator on "wakeup" apparently shows a screen which reads "Piko Navigator by Massoth".
2) Capabilities are described as an evolution of LGB MZS. The amperage and booster options are as per LGB, but the specifications for loco addresses etc are pure Massoth
3) LGB handsets can be attached to the Piko cenral station by means of the Massoth protocol converter.
4) The system is IP67 rated - protected against showers, though why you'd want your precious central station outside isn't clear!
5) The total cost for a radio-control Piko system (inc r/c handset and receiver) is quoted at Euros 670 (about GBP600 at today's exchange rate).