MTS III? Massoth? Piko?

[mbendebba]

knut: That is like putting a bowl of candies in front of a bunch of children and saying you cannot touch. So what does it say? I do not expect anything negative, on the contrary, I expect it to be a positive review.
My issues with the Piko system is primarily customer service issues?

Mohammed

 

[mbendebba]

thanks whatlep, does not suprise me.
Mohammed

 

[Railfan]

George: I should have kept my mouth shut, I did not read all of your post before putting my 2 cents in.
Mohammed

No problem, Mohammed. You shouldn't have kept quiet. It's better to have your impressions to add to the discussion.

 

[Railfan]

OK, let's see if I can get the pictures of the Piko central station posted properly.

 

[Railfan]

Well, I messed up the order of the central station pictures a bit, so I'll see if I can do better with the Piko Navigator.

Box

Navigator

 

[Railfan]

The wireless receiver.

 

[Railfan]

And for those of you that want to know the frequencies used, here are both the US and EU frequencies.

 

[mbendebba]

Enjoy it George, you are now hooked.

Mohammed

 

[whatlep]

OK, let's see if I can get the pictures of the Piko central station posted properly.

Excellent pictures - thank you! I wonder why Piko haven't updated their own website yet?

One point which may arise from the picture of the connectors on the rear of the central station is that there is only 1 DCC (actually Massoth Dimax) bus connection. The reveiew in Gartenbahnprofi notes that this is one of the rare weaknesses of the design, though it would only be an issue for users with multiple "tethered" handsets. Piko's default is to supply a radio handset, so the sole connection would be expected to be used only by the radio-control receiver (up to 8 handsets can contact 1 receiver). However, the same review notes that if multiple bus connections are genuinely required, a Massoth Dimax adaptor unit (8138001) can be used to give the required flexibility.

Reading the Gartenbahnprofi review, I can't help thinking that LGB/ Marklin's MTS system is going to find it very hard to gain new users, though doubtless dinosaurs like me will continue with it for years to come!

 

[Zerogee]

Am I right in thinking that the Massoth and Piko navigators are completely interchangeable with each other's central stations? Are they each compatible with the other's wireless receivers, or do you need the specific receiver for the specific navigator version? Just had a look at Jeremy (Dragon G)'s prices, and the Piko navigator is only about a fiver less than the Massoth one; the Piko receiver is about £10 less than the Massoth equivalent. Where Piko scores enormously, of course, is the very low price of its central station.
I already have a Dimax 1200Z and a Navigator for the garden, so don't need anything else there, but if I were ever to do a "small" (in G terms) indoor layout (which is something I've been thinking about to run Feldbahn stock on) then I'd certainly look at buying a Piko central station to run that, probably using my existing Navigator in tethered mode so that I didn't have to bother with buying another receiver.....

Jon.

 

[WillemD]

I think that some of the (slight) perceived negativity towards the Piko system is due to the fact that it is so new, and no-one has posted any proper reviews of it (certainly not on here - if anyone has links to some elsewhere, please post them!).

http://gscalereview.com/piko.html contains a link to a review by the German magazine "GartenbahnProfi".

For anyone who can't quite read the small print from that linked page

Fixed, now it is a bit larger

 

[WillemD]

Am I right in thinking that the Massoth and Piko navigators are completely interchangeable with each other's central stations? Are they each compatible with the other's wireless receivers, or do you need the specific receiver for the specific navigator version?

You should ask PIKO about this, because no one (on Dutch forum) seems to know that

 

[ChipG]

I am a Massoth owner. I ran the Piko system about a month ago for two days straight.
Comments match the prior poster. The IP67 rating might help with an inadvertent garden sprinkler.
Of note, the changelog for the firmware shows a merging of the Piko and Massoth code base.
This appears to me to be good from a support/update standpoint.
One question for actual verification: has anyone run a Piko Navigator on
a Massoth system?
Chip

 

[whatlep]

Am I right in thinking that the Massoth and Piko navigators are completely interchangeable with each other's central stations? Are they each compatible with the other's wireless receivers, or do you need the specific receiver for the specific navigator version?

You should ask PIKO about this, because no one (on Dutch forum) seems to know that

The receiver's frequencies indicated in one of the review pictures are exactly the same as those on page 6 of the Massoth r/c receiver manual (8133001 EU/ 8132001 US). I suggest it's the same device and the two types of Navigator are - for r/c purposes - the same too.

 

[Tim Brien]

The Navigator handset from Piko is completely interchangable with Massoth, however, only the Piko Navigator may be used with the Piko analogue 5 amp controller.
The receiver is different in that rather than two bus connectors, it has one bus connector and a larger connector for the analogue controller.

Mohammed,
these are local 'discounted' prices. Full retail add around 10%. Add to this the transformer of choice to power the system. Now you may see why Piko was an economical solution. Local prices on LGB are at least double the MSRP prices in the States.

8130201 DRC 300 EU $ 156
8130001 MULTI RECIEVER EU EXPRESSNET & LOCONET $ 255
8133001 RECIEVER EU $ 232
8133301 TRANSMITTER EU $ 190
8133501 TRANSMITTER EU + PLUS $ 150
8133701 FEEDBACK TRANSMITTER EU $ 150
8134001 NAVIGATOR cable control $ 442
8134501 NAVIGATOR RC $ 550
8134601 NAVIGATOR RC PLUS $ 592
8136001 CENTRAL STATION DIMAX800Z - TRANSFORMER REQUIRED $ 1,315
8136501 CENTRAL STATION DIMAX1200Z- TRANSFORMER REQUIRED $ 1,540
8137001 1200B BOOSTER- TRANSFORMER REQUIRED $ 1,315

 

[Zerogee]

Tim - the 1200Z Dimax has an integral transformer - your mains voltage is effectively the same as Europe, so surely you wouldn't need a separate transformer in Oz? Obviously in the States that isn't the case, which is why I assume Massoth only sell the 800Z (which DOES need a separate power supply) there and not the 1200Z?

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
one wonders why anyone would purchase the 800 system when the cost of an add on transformer would price the 800 more expensive than the 1200 Dimax. One then still only has 8 amps against the 12 amps of its bigger brother. Is it possible the local Dimax 1200 does not have an integral power supply? It would be interesting to see the price differential between European 800 and 1200 Dimax central stations.

 

[WaterColorJames]

Railfan

I am the Chief Engineer at the http://www.shourtline.com/ < Link To Shourt Line and we are the #1 Massoth dealer in the US for 4 years running. We are also PIKO dealers as well as ZIMO and other brands of MTS/DCC equipment. With that disclosure out of way I will have similar advise to as to what I gave our customer Tim in Australia who has similar requirements to yours. In general I would recommend the Massoth system if it fits your budget and track amperage requirements, however as every customer has unique requirements, from the information you have posted here are some our recommendations. Sorry it is so wordy but as an alternative to the words please visit our web site and see what the PIKO stuff actually looks like and how it goes together.


[blockquote][style="color: #3366ff;"]Railfan

[style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"] Questions:
[style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"] 1. Should I keep the MTS III and use it or buy the Massoth 800Z or Piko central station and sell the MTS III? Are there any advantages of the Massoth/Piko system over the MTS III system?
[/blockquote] I can not recomend keeping the MTS III as selling should cover most of the cost to upgrade to the PIKO system or put a dent in the cost of a Massoth system. One thing you did not mention is if you use LGB hand controllers and receivers. These can be used with both the PIKO and Massoth systems with the Massoth bus adapter however we find most all users of both the Massoth and PIKO central stations sell their LGB hand controllers and receivers in favor of the Navigator and Receiver due to their ease of use and superior range/battery life.

I recommend the PIKO central station, if 5 amps is enough for your train operations. Use it with either the Massoth or PIKO navigator as it will make programming decoders very easy from the PIKO central station. Either the PIKO or Massoth Navigators work with either the PIKO or Massoth Receivers that is to say they are interchangeble. We have many Massoth customers who now use the PIKO Navigators and Receivers due to cost considerations there belief that they will not need to upgrade the firmware on these devices themselves.
[style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"]
[blockquote] [style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"]Railfan

[style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"] 2. Should I use the (adjustable) Jumbo power supply to supply the 5 Amps max. to whichever of the MTS III/Massoth/Piko central station I choose, or just buy a cheap 5 Amp supply? I do plan on using the Jumbo to run some of my Accucraft locos that are analog only so I will keep it no matter what I decide on the CS.
[/blockquote] I recomend keeping your Jumbo for running you analog locos operation only and only if you need the extra amps. If you need only 5 amps you may want to consider using the PIKO 5 amp throttle with the PIKO Navigator and Receiver as it will allow wireless control of your analog train operations. I do not recommend using your Jumbo to run the PIKO or Massoth central stations.

It is a bonus if you go the PIKO central station, Navigator and Receiver as the same Navigator and receiver will work for your analog operations with the PIKO 5 amp analog throttle. You can not however use the Analog throttle at the same time as the a central station as only one can be used at time with the PIKO system (see diagrams and write up at our web site http://www.shourtline.com/ < Link To Shourt Line ) The central station could be powered by the Jumbo as a power source however a switching regulated power supply gives you cleaner power for better decoder communications, more efficient power conversion and safer operation. Running a PIKO 5 amp analog controller (not at the same time as PIKO central station) is better for analog locos than any central station running in analog mode. Be aware that you must never use any two controllers on the same section of track as this will burn out both. Best practice is to use a switch to connect either your analog or the central station systems to the track to avoid having two sources of power on the tack at the same time (ask us for a free schematic on how to do this). I recommend using a fully regulated switching power supply for your MTS/DCC system regardless if you go with Massoth or PIKO. See our web site for protected switching power supplies that work well with any AC power input voltage or frequency world wide.

[blockquote][style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"]Railfan

[style="background-color: #ffffff; color: #3366ff;"] 3. Other than the ability to update the Massoth system that the Piko can't do, are there any other known differences between the two? The Piko is significantly cheaper than the Massoth. I have heard of some problems updating the Massoth central station. Has anyone had any experience with that? Other problems? Does being able to update really matter?
[/blockquote]

Physical, Functional and Operational Differences: Yes there are diffences between the PIKO and Massoth:
The PIKO system is not user firmware upgradable, other differences are:
1) The PIKO Central station is only available in 5 amps, the Massoth comes in 8 or 12 amp versions.
2) The PIKO Central Station has no programing track terminals separate from the Track terminals used for operation. (Please visit our web site at the http://www.shourtline.com/ < Link To Shourt Line to see detailed close up photos of all Massoth and PIKO products showing connectors and how to wire each system) The PIKO uses the same terminals for both train operation and programming. The mode is controlled either by the button on the central station or by pushing the STOP button the navigator (this works in wireless mode also).
3) Physically: the PIKO system has no fan (not needed), is weather proofed (has splash guards over controls and wiring terminals), has no PC interface plug and has only one DiMAX bus port (use the Massoth Adapter to get more ports when needed)
4) Their appears to be no operational or functional difference between the PIKO or Massoth central stations other than what has been stated above.

Differences between the PIKO Navigator and Receiver and the Massoth Navigator and Receiver:
1) The PIKO Navigator works with the PIKO Receiver to operate either a Central Station or a PIKO 5 amp Analog Throttle via by wireless control. The Massoth Navigator does not currently have this in firmware and the Massoth Receiver does not have the firmware nor hardware to support a connection to the PIKO 5 amp analog throttle. (see photos on our web site at the http://www.ShourtLine.com < Link To Shourt Line for details)
2) Neither the PIKO Receiver nor the Navigator are user firmware upgradable.
3) The PIKO Navigator has no back light on the keypad, (the speed dial, stop buttons and LCD graphic display are back lighted), the color scheme is different and the firmware supports wireless operation the PIKO Analog 5 volt throttle from the Navigator when used in conjunction with the PIKO Receiver.
4) PIKO products are not user upgradable as to firmware.



DiMAX bus differences:
There appears to be no difference between the Massoth and PIKO central stations in the DiMAX bus but for the fact that the PIKO central station has only one DiMAX bus port. Note that the LGB MTS III DiMAX bus is not bi-directional and does not support bi-directional features.

[blockquote] [style="color: #3366ff;"]Railfan

[style="color: #3366ff;"] 3. ...I have heard of some problems updating the Massoth central station. Has anyone had any experience with that? Other problems? Does being able to update really matter?
[/blockquote] I have more Massoth customers than any other dealer in the US and have not heard anyone having problems updating their Massoth Central Station.

Updates really mattered when LGB went from the serial to the parallel standards however this issue is behind us and I have had no MTS III customers requesting firmware updates as there have been no featuers added to the MTS III and the same is true for the PIKO Central Station.

Re: Massoth availability in the USA:
I am happy to report that our first direct order from Massoth Germany has passed customs in Louisville, KY and we will be shipping out to all our US and Global customers next week from the Shourt Line in Los Angeles, California USA.

It has been a long wait but product is here and yes the Shourt Line will sell all Massoth Products at our everyday discount prices on all items and we are selling the summer specials at the published Massoth Germany Summer price for the US market of $259.00 USD for the XLS kit and $99.00 USD for the High output pulse smoker with SUSI bus.

Order now as we expect to run out and the next shipment from Germany will not arrive until June 28, 2011 but should arrive every two week there after like clock work. Depending on final shipping and duty taxes we may also be able to lower our already discounted Massoth prices. Check back after our Summer DCC seminars in Santa Monica California USA (by the beach) which start next week run through July 23, 2011. By the way, all attendees of our seminars receive a 15% coupon off MSRP for attending 1 day seminars and 20% off MSRP coupon for attending a 3 day seminar. These coupons can be applied to any Massoth, PIKO, ZIMO, SPROG II or other mfg. products as your wish.

 

[Railfan]

I am a Massoth owner. I ran the Piko system about a month ago for two days straight.
Comments match the prior poster. The IP67 rating might help with an inadvertent garden sprinkler.
Of note, the changelog for the firmware shows a merging of the Piko and Massoth code base.
This appears to me to be good from a support/update standpoint.
One question for actual verification: has anyone run a Piko Navigator on
a Massoth system?
Chip

Chip, we can try it at your place and find out!

Give me a chance to go through the manuals and digest some of the information and we can work out some time to meet.

 

[WaterColorJames]

Chip,

I use a PIKO navigator with my Massoth 2010 central station to program, and test run customer locos every day. No problems. I have also the the switch track control, switch routes, consisting, automated functions and all 4 modes of decoder programming both wired and wireless with up 1000 foot range, all no problem,

I have also used the Massoth Navigator with the PIKO receiver and the PIKO Navigator with the Massoth Receiver... no problems.
Ditto for the Massoth and PIKO central stations with all possible combinations of Navigator and receiver... no problems.