Live steam locomotive WATER

[bobg]

Without a doubt there is way, way tooooo much werritt about water for steamers. The first rule has to be, look in the kettle. If it's white (or greanish) and very furry looking inside, then don't use the water . . . . too much! If you cant avoid it, then a washout is required more frequently than for others. It's a thing you learn along with all the other stuff that you pick up along the way, with steamers.





STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT, deal with it, IF it happens.

 

[kevininasia]

The purified water you would get from a laboratory RO unit should absolutely not be used. Pure water is very corrosive, and the purer it is, the more corrosive. And lab-grade water is some of the purest available. In my experiment linked above, I had visible dezinc pitting in brass test samples after only 120 days with lab water. Unfortunately the experiment is in a members-only section and is not visible to the general public. I'll talk to the mods there and see if it can be copied or moved somewhere where others can see it. Otherwise I'll just re-post the whole thing here.

But to summarise, very pure waters such as deionised water (which is what a lab water system produces) are corrosive. Less pure is distilled water, however there is some evidence that distilled water is still too pure and possibly corrosive in steam boilers. People often say that rainwater or dehumidifier water IS distilled water, but this is only in theory. The time they each spend in the atmosphere is very different, and affects the purity. Rainwater has been drifting around as clouds for possibly days before finally falling, and in that time it picks up a lot of dust, soot, and dissolved acidic gases from industry etc. Dehumidifier water spends much less time in the atmosphere, yet it is still an open system. A steam distillation setup is a closed system and the water is therefore more pure. The few manufacturers who know their stuff about water suggest adding some tapwater to pure waters such as deionised or distilled. This will add some minerals to it and stop the corrosivity. Marklin and Regner both advise this, and it is excellent advice. If you use a very soft water such as deionised with 5% tapwater, and then empty the boiler after use, you will have no problems with scale, and no problems with corrosion.

My experiment showed that dehumidifier water was the best of all - the brass surface was very clean and devoid of any scale buildup, and there was no pitting. That's why I was wondering how dunnyrail knew this.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[MRail]

... interaction with the atmosphere allows carbon dioxide to dissolve into it, forming carbonic acid. As a result,....

A major reason why I can't understand the preference for rain water!!

 

[trammayo]

I have not had anything to do with model (or full size) loco boilers - other than pot boilers - but I have worked with steam-raising plant.

We used to add water treatment (which came in powder form). This was mixed with water and added to the feed water. Full blow down (to low water level) every day of course.

I just wondered if anybody made a liquid additive for model locos? I realise of course that the full-size boilers were either steel or iron and not copper or brass.

Just a thought.

 

[bobg]

I have not had anything to do with model (or full size) loco boilers - other than pot boilers - but I have worked with steam-raising plant.

We used to add water treatment (which came in powder form). This was mixed with water and added to the feed water. Full blow down (to low water level) every day of course.

I just wondered if anybody made a liquid additive for model locos? I realise of course that the full-size boilers were either steel or iron and not copper or brass.

Just a thought.

Yes they do! Mostly used in steel boilers which are not common until you get up to 7 1/4" Gauge.


I repeat STOP worrying, mostly our boilers are silver-soldered COPPER so there is no zinc to be leached. Some fittings MAY be brass, just change them for gunmetal or bronze fittings when their time is up twenty something years down the line!

 

[tramcar trev]

... interaction with the atmosphere allows carbon dioxide to dissolve into it, forming carbonic acid. As a result,....

A major reason why I can't understand the preference for rain water!!

Hmmm yes and it would appear some forumites don't read posts anyway.... Anyone will tell you rain water eats galvanised water tanks out quite quickly and I cant under stand why its prefered, BUT rainwater is prefered to brew a decent cup of tea with. I'd be using plain tap water and if it furrs up with scale then a rinse out with white vinegar (ascetic acid) then flush out the muck with a freshwater rinse.

 

[kevininasia]

My water post has been moved to a public area here:
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about54748.html

Incidentally, pure waters are known to cause pitting and pinholes in copper, in addition to dezincification in brasses.

 

[bobg]

My water post has been moved to a public area here:
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about54748.html

Incidentally, pure waters are known to cause pitting and pinholes in copper, in addition to dezincification in brasses.

I give up. Worry yourself to an early grave if you must. I shall continue as I have done for the last thirty years, because in another thirty I probably wont here too worry about it.

 

[tagorton]

My water post has been moved to a public area here:
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about54748.html

Incidentally, pure waters are known to cause pitting and pinholes in copper, in addition to dezincification in brasses.

Complicated innit! I am not not an expert in these matters. I have been running these little locomotives for thirty years however, and I find water from a dehumidifier keeps my locomotive boilers in good condition. Local soft tap water will eventually mank up one's safety valve top but is fine occasionally. Dehumidifier water is comparatively inexpensive to produce using modern domestic appliances and has the added advantage of keeping windows dry in soggy weather.
For practical purposes a steam locomotive of any scale is not a diamond. It is a working bit of kit which will wear in all sorts of ways and should be used and properly maintained. If this is done then you will get many years of pleasure from it. IF maintained properly and looked after then, after ten years or so one will probably get a similar price to what one paid. Works out cheaper than golf club fees or a season ticket to Plymouth Argyle. One could always of course, keep the locomotive in a display case and just imagine running it ? and what a shame that would be....

 

[tramcar trev]

One could always of course, keep the locomotive in a display case and just imagine running it ? and what a shame that would be....

Yes it would be a shame, but it seems to be a popular way of keeping Locomotives pristine....

 

[spoz]

There's a good reason I don't run live steam - 30 odd years of dealing with the full sized version! And, unfortunately, once having to enter a boiler room after an accident. To quote the comments of one well respected boiler manufacturer (Parker):

[size=16pt][size=16pt][size=16pt]

It [size=14pt]must be understood that every Steam Boiler system requires a proper Boiler Water Treatment Program with ​

regular water analyses, adequate regulated blowdowns, correct maintenance, periodic safety checks and periodic inspection follow-up. All of these are necessary for long life and efficient boiler service. ​

[size=16pt][size=16pt][size=16pt][/size][/size][/size]​

Sage advice; and while it is aimed at the users of boilers much larger than we are talking about in this forum, and made of different materiels, the principles are the same; they are still pressure vessels which are potentially subject to fouling of their safety mechanisms.​

[/size][/size][/size][/size]

 

[tramcar trev]

Spoz I have never witnessed first hand the aftermath of a boiler incident apart from seeing what I thought were seasoned RAN crews abandoning a paddle steamer when they managed to prime the boiler but I have seen pictures... I have been in the "converter room" at White Bay power station when a rotary converter dissintegrated and that was exciting enough. Molten copper flying everywhere and as a souvenir I still have a scar on my right foot.....

But lets be brutally honest, the boilers these guys are using are nothing but very expensive toys, held together with silver solder and in reality would never explode as the silver solder yields and prevents a proper explosion, I have been present when these silver soldered boilers have been tested to destruction. In my steam launch I had a Yarrow Boiler with a 12" Copper top drum and the copper tubes were silver soldered in place. I used sea water in that on occasion when the feed water ran out and when cleaning it out there was no appreciable wear, erosion or damage apart from the obvious piting on the brass fittings...

I think this topic is one that just causes angst among the novices..... Use potable water and give a rinse out with white vinegar occasionaly is all that is in reality required. Along with testing the safety valve and if they have one replacing the fusible plug.... Oh they don't have a fusible plug??? Then indeed they are toys all be it expensive and beautifuly detailed....

 

[tagorton]

There's a good reason I don't run live steam - 30 odd years of dealing with the full sized version! And, unfortunately, once having to enter a boiler room after an accident. To quote the comments of one well respected boiler manufacturer (Parker):

[size=16pt][size=16pt][size=16pt]

It [size=14pt]must be understood that every Steam Boiler system requires a proper Boiler Water Treatment Program with ​

regular water analyses, adequate regulated blowdowns, correct maintenance, periodic safety checks and periodic inspection follow-up. All of these are necessary for long life and efficient boiler service. ​

[size=16pt][size=16pt][/size][/size]​

Sage advice; and while it is aimed at the users of boilers much larger than we are talking about in this forum, and made of different materiels, the principles are the same; they are still pressure vessels which are potentially subject to fouling of their safety mechanisms.​

[/size][/size][/size][/size]

We should be clear about this. The above sage advice has little do with our small and simple copper boilers operating on 40/60psi in our commercially available locomotives. The products of, for instance, Roundhouse Engineering and Accucraft UK are designed to comply with the Safe Engineering Practice component of the EEC Pressure Vessel Regulation for pressure vessels of below three bar/litre. This includes both boiler and gas tank (if fitted). The boilers are plated and numbered in accordance with this legislation. They are a legal and safe product. All that is required to operate these locomotives safely is to follow the simple instructions provided.

Should one wish to build one?s own locomotive including the boiler, then it is recommended that one joins the nearest Model Engineering Society (affiliated to either the Northern or Southern Federation) and they will provide all the information, help and testing facilities for you to build a legal, safe and insurable locomotive. If one is worried about feedwater for our little dragons then don?t re-invent the wheel ? get yourself a dehumidifier ? it has worked fine with mine for nearly three decades ? and all of my original locomotives are still running.

I spent many years involved with the 440v ring main systems on Her Majesty?s warships and I have seen three serious accidents with this supply. Perhaps I should give this as a reason for not running LGB electrically powered locomotives ? it is just as relevant...

 

[mike]

certinly is tag.. im currently re moveing ALL 440v ring mains form lazy on your sage advice..

 

[tagorton]

certinly is tag.. im currently re moveing ALL 440v ring mains form lazy on your sage advice..

440v would certainly stop cats peeing on your track Mike...

 

[mike]

ta tag.. all removed..
the very very worst thing you can do to your trains ..imho
is to NOT use them
use it..

 

[stockers]

Agreed Mike - just run the little blighters. I keep wondering when one will say -'enough', but with a bit of basic care they keep going.

 

[sparky230]

440volts pah humbug try 11.5k Sub Mains

but seriously i'm a fully qualified electrical engineer and inspector, the amount of outside electrical work i've seen thats leathal is unbelivable.

Normal household sockets used outside, twin and earth cable laid in flower beds.

No Rcds on supplys etc.

 

[spoz]

Spoz I have never witnessed first hand the aftermath of a boiler incident apart from seeing what I thought were seasoned RAN crews abandoning a paddle steamer when they managed to prime the boiler but I have seen pictures...

I've never actually primed a boiler, although a long time ago I went rather close (with an old Scotch boiler, lives in my memory, as does the reaction of the MEO!)....the accident I had involvement with was failure of a main steam line. That's not the reason I don't do live steam on the railway, however; it's just that I'd had enough of it. Don't know when your paddle steamer incident was; but we haven't had any steam ships since the early 2000s when Brisbane went; and even then only a small proportion of the Navy after the early 90s when the DEs paid off, so there would be little steam experience left now.

I think this topic is one that just causes angst among the novices..... Use potable water and give a rinse out with white vinegar occasionaly is all that is in reality required. Along with testing the safety valve and if they have one replacing the fusible plug.... Oh they don't have a fusible plug??? Then indeed they are toys all be it expensive and beautifuly detailed....

I guess that was the point I was trying to make; use the best water available and make sure you do the appopriate maintenance, taking account of what you have been doing.

Steve

 

[bobg]

From this point on, return and re-read post 46, end of story!