Lipo Lion or other Newer Battery Types other than NiMhor Lead Acid

-bbbb

-bbbb

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21 Dec 2017
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Idaho
They have 2 lithium cells in them so have a nominal voltage of 7.2 - 7.4 volts.
Ahh.. My year old partially discharged ones, at the moment measure at about 7.7v actual each. They've been charged a couple of days ago but they've been used off and on each day since. I wonder how they'd measure at full charge. hmm.. I'll have to check. But I'm relieved at the idea that they are less voltage than I thought, because I think the 4034 was only intended to run at 16v even though people have ran them with more.


EDIT: Each is 8.55 volts actual at full charge.
 
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ge_rik

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
24 Oct 2009
9,603
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Cheshire
www.riksrailway.blogspot.com
Well, well, well. You live and learn. I'd have called that a PP3, just looked at them on eBay and they are ambiguous about the voltage and whether they include low voltage protection. I would like to assume that they do, for safety's sake.

Rik
PS Just found a description on eBay that says they do have internal protection. This might make the problematic to charge inside a loco if wired in series.
 
-bbbb

-bbbb

Registered
21 Dec 2017
201
30
Idaho
PS Just found a description on eBay that says they do have internal protection. This might make the problematic to charge inside a loco if wired in series.
Are you sure they weren't talking about the protection in the charger? I think most of them say that the chargers that come with those batteries have protection to prevent over charging. Apparently some of the chargers that come with them only put out 8.4 volts, and begin some sort of function when the voltage of the battery reaches 8.1 volts.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,710
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North Essex
Well, well, well. You live and learn. I'd have called that a PP3, just looked at them on eBay and they are ambiguous about the voltage and whether they include low voltage protection. I would like to assume that they do, for safety's sake.

Rik
PS Just found a description on eBay that says they do have internal protection. This might make the problematic to charge inside a loco if wired in series.
The tech specs for the Ansmann packs, which all have internal protection circuitry (even the 3.7v single-cell "pack"), specifically say that they can be connected in either serial OR parallel to make any desired configuration - and I double-checked with both Rapid's and Ansmann's own tech departments, both of them assured me that the packs were safe to use AND charge in either serial or parallel combinations; of course, if multiple cells or banks of cells are connected in series then you need the correct charger for that total number of cells - a 4-cell (14.8v) charger must only be used with 4 cells in series, or parallel multiples thereof (eg: 4S1P, 4S2P, or 2 x 2S1P or 2S2P in series).

Edit: it was stressed to me that if several packs were to be connected in either series or parallel, that those packs should be sourced and purchased from the same supplier at the same time to ensure they were as closely matched as possible from the start. The protection boards in each pack should prevent any danger, but for optimal operation it is better to have cells that start off well matched.

Jon.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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Hmmmm well I have certainly teased a lot of interesting material out of the woodwork. Thanks guys, however I am back to square 1 with my concerns again raising to the top. Now not sure if I will want to go away from NiMh again. Reasons:-

- continuing concerns about protection.
- difficulties with charging if I use differing Battery Configurations / sizes within the 2 target locomotives.
- physical connection of the charger to battery with multiple cells. Jon. assurances from Coy’s above does not make me comfortable, not you Jon. I just NEVER trust assurances from Large Companies that want to flog you stuff.

However it may be that I may need to initially ditch the Sound which makes the Procab offering here attractive. Certainly as a full set it is atrractive with Lipo Batteries, a chance to see what I think of the teck. Not cheep I know but the second Loco will come in at just less than a hundred sovs.

Acc+Ess Protocab

There is always the hope that they will add sound at some date in the future, certainly the handset would appear to have enough buttons to do so. In the meantime I may be able to stuff in a MLS Sound Chip as well.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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San Diego
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The specs for the motor controller are:

The 0502 is designed for 12Volt motors with running current up to 450mA (500mA stall for max. 30 seconds)

Does not seem at all appropriate for G scale in voltage or current, so is there a different motor controller?

Greg
 
ge_rik

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
24 Oct 2009
9,603
144
Cheshire
www.riksrailway.blogspot.com
ge_rik

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
24 Oct 2009
9,603
144
Cheshire
www.riksrailway.blogspot.com
The tech specs for the Ansmann packs, which all have internal protection circuitry (even the 3.7v single-cell "pack"), specifically say that they can be connected in either serial OR parallel to make any desired configuration - and I double-checked with both Rapid's and Ansmann's own tech departments, both of them assured me that the packs were safe to use AND charge in either serial or parallel combinations; of course, if multiple cells or banks of cells are connected in series then you need the correct charger for that total number of cells - a 4-cell (14.8v) charger must only be used with 4 cells in series, or parallel multiples thereof (eg: 4S1P, 4S2P, or 2 x 2S1P or 2S2P in series).

Edit: it was stressed to me that if several packs were to be connected in either series or parallel, that those packs should be sourced and purchased from the same supplier at the same time to ensure they were as closely matched as possible from the start. The protection boards in each pack should prevent any danger, but for optimal operation it is better to have cells that start off well matched.

Jon.
That's reassuring, but I'm not sure if the protection circuitry they use is different to that found inside normal 'protected' li-ion cylindrical cells. Certainly, I have been advised that it is inadvisable to wire up individual protected cells into packs in series because this can lead to an imbalance in the charge between cells. Maybe things have moved on since I was given this advice?

Rik
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
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San Diego
www.elmassian.com
If you do a bit of research, you will find that there is normally a PTC "device" in the typical 18650 cells. Pressure, Temperature, Current, nothing really sophisticated.
Usually a pressure valve, and a contact that opens power under heat (temp or a short circuit creating heat)

Nothing close to the smarts in an external board that monitors charge and discharge and will permanently disconnect a bad cell.

(yes some people have put the "Smart" circuit board in a cell, but this is an exception, and much more costly).

Greg
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
14,812
344
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Gr
The specs for the motor controller are:

The 0502 is designed for 12Volt motors with running current up to 450mA (500mA stall for max. 30 seconds)

Does not seem at all appropriate for G scale in voltage or current, so is there a different motor controller?

Greg
Greg these Procab Systems are designed primarily for 00, but I see no reason to not use them for the 2 small Locomotives that I am intending them for. I doubt they would be suitable for any G Scale except perhaps things as small as the LGB Handcart and similar such things that would have little power draw.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
23,179
405
Tamworth, Staffs.
You *might* just-about get away with it.. But only with the models with the smaller motor in them, like the hard-cart.

I would not even risk ir in the Feldbahn loco's.

I still reckon a stall would 'pop' the controller?? :(
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
14,812
344
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
You *might* just-about get away with it.. But only with the models with the smaller motor in them, like the hard-cart.

I would not even risk ir in the Feldbahn loco's.

I still reckon a stall would 'pop' the controller?? :(
As I said before I am looking at a Dapol Terrier and a G1 Y8 that is very small with a 6v Motor that tuns on 4AA so I reckon all should be good.

G1 Y8 below showing small space to work with, 4aa battery pack pokes out of Boiler to about centre of the Plug Socket. Not a lot of space to play with but I reckon that I maybe able to squeeze 1 circiut board beneath the Cab between the frames without showing. If I do not go down htmefancy Battery route I may be able to fiddle with aaa NiMh, but think that I have already looked at that with no luck of stuffing all the gear in.
114122_f3b04a8aa2071d0d9bfa5bfff5fd87b5.jpeg
114123_15bd689ff18f9623a49dc630e8a16ddb.jpeg
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
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San Diego
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You say: As I said before I am looking at a Dapol Terrier and a G1 Y8 that is very small with a 6v Motor that tuns on 4AA so I reckon all should be good.

To be very specific, I am most concerned with the 450 milliampere rating of the controller, and only 500 milliampere for 30 seconds, which implies DAMAGE over 30 seconds.

just because you are running 6 volts, it says NOTHING about the current draw of the motor. Agreed it's most likely low, but motors can produce heavy current drains for short times, especially when first starting, not only a heavy load.

I just am warning you, and would encourage you to measure the actual current drawn (although you will probably only be able to measure average current)

For reference, AA batteries can put out over 1/2 amp..

 
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dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
14,812
344
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
You say: As I said before I am looking at a Dapol Terrier and a G1 Y8 that is very small with a 6v Motor that tuns on 4AA so I reckon all should be good.

To be very specific, I am most concerned with the 450 milliampere rating of the controller, and only 500 milliampere for 30 seconds, which implies DAMAGE over 30 seconds.

just because you are running 6 volts, it says NOTHING about the current draw of the motor. Agreed it's most likely low, but motors can produce heavy current drains for short times, especially when first starting, not only a heavy load.

I just am warning you, and would encourage you to measure the actual current drawn (although you will probably only be able to measure average current)

For reference, AA batteries can put out over 1/2 amp..

I have been looking a little more at the Y8, I can get 8 aaa NiMh in the boiler and have made Dummies of the Fosworks DCC Battery Chips. I can get it all in plus plenty of space for a DCC Chip suitable for 0 or G1. Plus the Fosworks DCC Battery Chips have been reduced in size a little which will help me out some more, though I have not checked out the new size as yet. The Terrier may well have to be on hold for the time being.
 
T

Timbo

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12 Apr 2016
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Philippines
Hi,
I began my time with RC with cars. I therefore began with trains having a good number of LiPo batteries of the 2S (7.4v) size and a very flexible charger.
Reason for RC of my trains.
I live in the Philippines and the climate rapidly causes the track to become filthy requiring that I must clean the track frequently. An alternative in the form of RC was therefore very attractive. I already had some RC experience with my cars and was equipped with a good number of LiPo batteries of the 2S (7.4v) size and a very flexible charger.
Setting up for RC
I selected Deltang receivers and transmitters. I have purchased these and accessories from RCTrains. (Thanks Rik and Phil). I began with LiIon batteries (of two physical sizes, useful) and associated chargers which were supplied with the batteries. Whilst successful I found the battery holders awkward and less reliable than I like. This encouraged me back to LiPo. I also confused myself regarding connectors. I have recently standardised on JST and adaptors.
Operation
I now run exclusively with LiPo batteries standardising upon 14.7v by means of a single 4S (14.8v) or two 2S (7.4v) connected in series. The Deltang receiver has a voltage cut-off to protect from over-discharging. The charger takes care of the over-charging. The transmitter can operate with 12 different, independent, locos simultaneously. I have run four, but one needs to concentrate to avoid crashes on my very simple layout.
Loco 1 – kit Power wagon. With 4S LiPo battery. May be charged in-situ or easily removed.
Loco 2 – kit Power wagon. With 4S LiPo battery. May be charged in-situ or easily removed.
Loco 3 – LGB Internal 4S LiPo battery. Charged in-situ
Loco 4 – LGB Internal 4S LiPo battery. Charged in-situ
Loco 5 – LGB Power wagon. With 4S LiPo battery. May be charged in-situ or easily removed.

Kit Locos
Houston Gate bodies mounted on Swift Sixteen power bogies. I find the bodies too small to easily contain the LiPo batteries.
LGB Locos
Two are large enough to have the 4S LiPo batteries fitted internally. Both are analogue rather than DCC. I have zero experience with DCC. One of the locos was DCC and I removed all the associated electrics and boxed them away. Both have a soundcard and associated speaker.
The third loco is not big enough to have a 4S LiPo fitted without cutting parts inside. I do not want to do this and keep the loco as unchanged as I can.
Power Wagons
A convenient way to supply power to the smaller locos or, indeed, any loco. They also provide a place for additional electronics such as a soundcard and speaker. If power is required further along the train that is also easily achieved. I have standardised configuration and wiring allowing the power wagon to be used with different locos. This can lead to a saving of money as the wagon can be switched to different locos as required. When operating, one needs to remember that the selector on the transmitter is connecting to the power wagon and not the loco.
Future Batteries
There are physically smaller batteries than I have been using.
1S Typically used in RC toy helicopters and cars. These are very small and very light. Could be wired in series to give larger voltages. However, personally, I would not do this as the charging consideration could be somewhat tricky, if not dangerous.
2S These are more interesting. Again, coming from the world of RC Helicopters and cars. Their physical size allows them to be fitted inside most locos. Charging, in this case, would be in-situ.
Running Times
I have never set things up to test this side. However, I recently had a 4S powered loco running for around six hours. This is plenty!!

My apologies if this has been a bit of a ramble. I simply wanted to put my experiences down on paper and that hopefully someone will find them useful.
 
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