LGB Track Extending my Non Scenic 12x5 LGB Oval to 13x7.

[Rob1962]

Here it is.I am waiting to increase my non-scenery 12x5 LGB Oval Layout.Not being familiar with anything other than a basic circle or oval, I want to enlarge the track to a larger oval.Also, because my new Live Steam 13 Ton 2 Cylinder Shay will not complete a single turn on my current layout, even though I was told it would.Anyway, what size track would I need for extending to the 13x7 layout?

 

[maxi-model]

From Accucraft UK site, for 13 ton 2 truck Shay -

Specifications:
1:20.3 Scale – 45 mm Gauge/32mm Gauge (adjustable)
Brass, Copper & Stainless Steel Construction
48 in. (1.2 M) Mini. Radius
Length: 16.8 in. (427 mm)
Width: 4.5 in. (116 mm)
Height: 6.6 in. (168 mm)

1.2 metre/2.4 metre diameter curve minimum = 7'10" minimum diameter, on centre line of track guage. You need a bigger base. The LGB R3 radius, strictly speaking, is a little undersize at around 7'8" total diameter. Note - radii/diameters quoted for track and loco are always taken at the centre line. So, even at minimum radius you need to allow for around 6" extra on the total base area width to cover full track width with ties. You will need a 8'6" width base minimum to accommodate. Suggest you also think about "flexi" track to optimise curve radius and achieve a minimum base size. LGB, and others make this type of track you bend to your required radius. Max

 

[Gizzy]

Are you needing larger radii curves?

What are your current curves?

My guess is that you are using LGB R1 given your size constraints. You could go to R2 curves as you would need at least 6 ft width but you won't get R3 curves in a 7 ft space....

 

[Rob1962]

I’m sorry, I completely do not understand the above 2 replies.Is what you’re saying is the new Shay will not work with my new 13x7 layout?I will post a video later on. I might be explaining what I’m trying to achieve. Thank you so very much for your assistance.Much appreciated.

 

[JimmyB]

I’m sorry, I completely do not understand the above 2 replies.Is what you’re saying is the new Shay will not work with my new 13x7 layout?I will post a video later on. I might be explaining what I’m trying to achieve. Thank you so very much for your assistance.Much appreciated.

Basically - Yes, the board is not wide enough to take the curves (48 in radius) required for smooth running of your shay.

 

[dunnyrail]

We talk radius over here, what Jimmy refers to is a full width baseboard of 8 feet to accommodate the 48inch radius curves your locomotive apparently needs.

 

[Rob1962]

Basically - Yes, the board is not wide enough to take the curves (48 in radius) required for smooth running of your shay.

Thank you Is there any other way to achieve this /Buy new Track.

 

[Gizzy]

Thank you Is there any other way to achieve this /Buy new Track.

In short, no.

You need large radius curves to run your loco. You have already discovered that your Shay binds on tight curves.

Larger radius curves mean you will need a larger space for them.

As stated, you will need a width of 8 ft between track centres, so allowing for the width of the loco I would add another foot or so.

You could fit track bent to a 6 foot radius onto your proposed baseboard, but you will not get the smooth running you desire.

You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, as we say here in the UK....

 

[maxi-model]

Manufacturer spec's usually allow for a little wiggle room on minimum curve radius/diameter. Yes, they are quoted to minimise risk of wheels binding on rails' curvature, to cope with the length of the wheelbase of each of the loco's trucks. They are also quoted to take into account of the possible overhang of the loco on tight curves and the risk of dragging coupled stock off. As supplied the 13 ton Shay is fitted with what are termed "body mounted" (on the loco frame end beams) "link and pin" type couplers, they can be a problem if the loco ends "throw out" excessively on curves. It's why some models are supplied with couplers mounted on extension bars directly attached to the trucks, coupler aligns more with curvature of track as a result, even if the loco body swings outside of the track's gauge. It's either stick with the spec's or experiment to see how tight you can go. Luckily the 13 ton Shay you have has its trucks mounted toward the ends of the frames, that will minimise the body swinging out and causing coupling issues here. Max

 

[jalicunning]

Rob1962, perhaps your 13T shay u-joints need more filing. I have the same loco and it will navigate R2 radius. But running on tight curves like those will cause quicker wear to the running gear. Did you buy the kit or was yours ready to run? Here is the part of the assembly instructions where it explains the filing. The parts labeled 16 and 18 on both driveshafts have to be filed at the tabs where the parts fasten to the circular ring. This allows for greater movement of the joint, and will permit running tighter radius curves.

 

[Gerard]

Hello Rob,

Instead of adapting your layout to your loco there may be is a reversed solution: adapting your loco to your layout.
I have no idea yet what your loco exactly looks like in terms of length, wheels etcetera but I can show you an example of improving the "corner behaviour" of a large Brockenlok.
Attached you find chapter 4.9.5 the description of the conversion of the Brockenlok LGB 21812 by my friend and co-author Rainer Kleinsteuber. Its described in our book "Our Model Garden Railway" (available on Amazon) together with 9 more locos he has adapted.
You can reach him on his mailadress: rainer.kleinsteuber@gmail.com (while referring to me). If necessary I can help you translate your mail into Dutch.
May be he can help you with some expert advice and possibly he can adapt your loco.

 

[Gizzy]

Are you needing larger radii curves?

What are your current curves?

My guess is that you are using LGB R1 given your size constraints. You could go to R2 curves as you would need at least 6 ft width but you won't get R3 curves in a 7 ft space....

The other alternative are Piko GR3 Curves. These have a diameter of just over 6 feet. So you can lay these on your 13 x 7 foot baseboard, with space for any overhang of the loco and stock. Some straight track can also be obtained between the curves, either quantity 10-12 LGB 10000 Straights or the Piko equivalent 35200 track.

I don't know how well your Shay would run on the larger Piko curves, as I am not familiar with this loco....

 

[dunnyrail]

The other alternative are Piko GR3 Curves. These have a diameter of just over 6 feet. So you can lay these on your 13 x 7 foot baseboard, with space for any overhang of the loco and stock. Some straight track can also be obtained between the curves, either quantity 10-12 LGB 10000 Straights or the Piko equivalent 35200 track.

I don't know how well your Shay would run on the larger Piko curves, as I am not familiar with this loco....

I think we should also mention that Piko and LGB track will connect perfectly the rail ans sleeper height being entrely compatible.

 

[maxi-model]

Have you tried contacting Jay Kovacs at The Train Department. ? They could advise if the interesting U/J modifiction suggested was viable and reliable. They could probably do the work or advise who can. Remember if you modify the lo0co you will breach any warranties that may still apply, if bought new. Who sold you the loco ? If a trader I would return for refund and buy from a more reliable source. Do you have space the increase the width of the base ordered if the truck modifiction is not viable ?

 

[Rob1962]

Rob1962, perhaps your 13T shay u-joints need more filing. I have the same loco and it will navigate R2 radius. But running on tight curves like those will cause quicker wear to the running gear. Did you buy the kit or was yours ready to run? Here is the part of the assembly instructions where it explains the filing. The parts labeled 16 and 18 on both driveshafts have to be filed at the tabs where the parts fasten to the circular ring. This allows for greater movement of the joint, and will permit running tighter radius curves. View attachment 354938View attachment 354939

 

[Rob1962]

And this was on a 12x4 Layout,What I have to do to achieve this is Have Regulator full open/Gas at 3/4 High/Noisey,That give me full oval 3 x Then she stop on turns again,So close yet so.far.

 

[Rob1962]

Have you tried contacting Jay Kovacs at The Train Department. ? They could advise if the interesting U/J modifiction suggested was viable and reliable. They could probably do the work or advise who can. Remember if you modify the lo0co you will breach any warranties that may still apply, if bought new. Who sold you the loco ? If a trader I would return for refund and buy from a more reliable source. Do you have space the increase the width of the base ordered if the truck modifiction is not viable ?

 

[Rob1962]

Rob1962, perhaps your 13T shay u-joints need more filing. I have the same loco and it will navigate R2 radius. But running on tight curves like those will cause quicker wear to the running gear. Did you buy the kit or was yours ready to run? Here is the part of the assembly instructions where it explains the filing. The parts labeled 16 and 18 on both driveshafts have to be filed at the tabs where the parts fasten to the circular ring. This allows for greater movement of the joint, and will permit running tighter radius curves. View attachment 354938View attachment 354939

Thank you,This was RTR not kit but I will do as you mentioned tomorrow and report back here,Thank you much.
Happy Steaming.

 

[Rob1962]

Hello Rob,

Instead of adapting your layout to your loco there may be is a reversed solution: adapting your loco to your layout.
I have no idea yet what your loco exactly looks like in terms of length, wheels etcetera but I can show you an example of improving the "corner behaviour" of a large Brockenlok.
Attached you find chapter 4.9.5 the description of the conversion of the Brockenlok LGB 21812 by my friend and co-author Rainer Kleinsteuber. Its described in our book "Our Model Garden Railway" (available on Amazon) together with 9 more locos he has adapted.
You can reach him on his mailadress: rainer.kleinsteuber@gmail.com (while referring to me). If necessary I can help you translate your mail into Dutch.
May be he can help you with some expert advice and possibly he can adapt your loco.

Thank you Gerard,First I will file down the tabs at the metal circle,If that fails I will let you know,I would rather like you mention just adapt the loco to the layout btw this is a Accucraft
Live Steam 13 Ton Shay,I did make some progress on the current layout as you can see in the video below.

 

[Rob1962]

Are you needing larger radii curves?

What are your current curves?

My guess is that you are using LGB R1 given your size constraints. You could go to R2 curves as you would need at least 6 ft width but you won't get R3 curves in a 7 ft space....

Thank you,I made some progress tonight see video below,This was Regulator open full and gas open 3/4 Noisey.If I would extend the current 12x4 to 13x7 would she be able to do nice smooth turns,Check out the video,Tell me what you think,Thank you.
Happy Steaming..