LGB points (turnouts) causing derailing issue.

[Gavin Sowry]

One of the best investments I ever made, was in an Aristocraft Standards Gauge. I was, at the time, having a few niggles with my points, and when I saw this gauge in the shop, I didn't even bother to ask how much it was, I knew that's just what I needed. As others have said, the two biggest problems are back to back wheel gauge, and the checkrail flangeway gap.

 

[Lez2000]

One question that has not been asked. What make of wheel are you running over the frog?

I'm just running a Piko Taurus, an LGB Stainz and an LGB carriage so presumably they're made by Piko and LGB.
I haven't started to change any of the running gear yet.

 

[Lez2000]

Update: I’ve now had chance for a more in-depth look at the point. The problem appears to be caused by the skate dropping into the frog, not, as I originally thought, the flanges.

Is there an accepted cure for this as it happens on both locos I’ve tried? It doesn’t happen in the other direction.

 

[ntpntpntp]

Ah.... ok, so the skate probably needs bending just a little so the outside edge isn't falling down into the gap. Check it is seated properly, and if you do feel it needs bending go gently and be sure to support it so you don't put strain on the pocket it rides in.

Unusual for two different locos both to have the same problem though, so the point frog area still needs close examination I think.

 

[Fred Mills]

Try taking the "Skate" off the locomotive, and bending it slightly up on the outboard side...then replace it and see if it is improved. best to do this in a vice, with a pair of pliers, not while it is on the loco.

 

[Lez2000]

Try taking the "Skate" off the locomotive, and bending it slightly up on the outboard side...then replace it and see if it is improved. best to do this in a vice, with a pair of pliers, not while it is on the loco.

Yes, I was wondering about how to go about bending them, thank you.

 

[Lez2000]

Ah.... ok, so the skate probably needs bending just a little so the outside edge isn't falling down into the gap. Check it is seated properly, and if you do feel it needs bending go gently and be sure to support it so you don't put strain on the pocket it rides in.

Unusual for two different locos both to have the same problem though, so the point frog area still needs close examination I think.

Yes, I think I’ll try the other locos as well and see what’s what.
Thanks,
Les.

 

[Rhinochugger]

I haven't ever owned an LGB R5, but am not a fan of their points anyway but ...............

Just before the contact strips, there's a lot of flange contact on the plastic - so, as a simple man, I'm tempted to side with the people who have suggested looking at whether the frog is sitting high.

Having said that, riding high on the flange alone should not cause de-railment. My track and points are all pretty scruffy when it comes to the way that they are laid, and all of my stuff, irrespective of the depth of flange, rides through smoothly or bouncily without de-railing.

So .............. id there something else?

Do you have a spare LGB wheelset? Can you just push that through the point and watch what happens?

Then, flick it through a bit faster and watch?

It's the way that I have solved point problems in the past

 

[Lez2000]

I haven't ever owned an LGB R5, but am not a fan of their points anyway but ...............

Just before the contact strips, there's a lot of flange contact on the plastic - so, as a simple man, I'm tempted to side with the people who have suggested looking at whether the frog is sitting high.

Having said that, riding high on the flange alone should not cause de-railment. My track and points are all pretty scruffy when it comes to the way that they are laid, and all of my stuff, irrespective of the depth of flange, rides through smoothly or bouncily without de-railing.

So .............. id there something else?

Do you have a spare LGB wheelset? Can you just push that through the point and watch what happens?

Then, flick it through a bit faster and watch?

It's the way that I have solved point problems in the past

It appears the real problem is with the skate dropping into the frog.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Ah - I'm out of my depth ('scuse the pun) here, as I operate a totally skate free railway.

However, I do believe that some people tweak the skate so that it is tilting upwards slightly

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Can you post another picture of the frog, further away, but same angle, without the car/skate?

I'm not quite understanding the difference between what the skate is riding on, and what is so much higher to the left.

Thanks, Greg

(I run track power, but I am skateless, nothing but irritating)

 

[Rhinochugger]

It's a bit of an irony that a large proportion of people in the UK who use the larger radius points, tend to use locos without skates.

It may have something to do with longer wheelbases / more wheels for current collection

 

[phils2um]

Glad you found the real problem. I had one loco with the same problem, my LGB ABe4/4 Bernina Bahn Railcar. Carefully bending the skates was the solution.

Unlike Greg, my trackwork is predominantly brass not stainless steel. Also, I don't think the climate in the U.S. upper Midwest is near as friendly toward outdoor operation as compared to southern California. I've tried running without skates. It meant a whole lot more manual track cleaning to keep things running smoothly. With skates I very seldom have a conductivity problem or need to get the pole sander out. I can go months with just running my track cleaning gondola (LGB 4021/5005 combo) in a freight every other day.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Well, the stainless is a godsend for pickup, and there's various reasons I do without skates.

Many of my diesels are USAT, and I don't want the traction tires, shortens the gearbox lifetimes, and causes other problems. By swapping those axles out, I gain more pickup points, thus eliminating the skates has no negative effect.

Shorter locos are not usually LGB, so no skates, and I normally add tender power pickup to steamers that did not have them.

I'd probably do things differently if I had brass track, and skates do a good job of "scrubbing" the rails, but they seem to take extra maintenance and hang up on things.


The challenges are locos like these:

 

[Paradise]

I think the back to back wheel spacing may be too narrow which pulls the locomotive and skate sideways away from the frog letting the skate drop into the gap. The skate also appears to have it's leading edge bent lower which won't help matters.

 

[Gavin Sowry]

As others have said, try removing the skate.
Now, try as Gav did, try running without the skate. (Seriously).

I took the skates off my LGB O&K loco as it had grooved out, and I wanted to make sure I got the right replacement (there are more than 1 type).
Anyhow, shop didn't have the skates in stock, so I reassembled the loco without them, and found that it would actually haul more wagons!

Oh, Greg mentioned traction tyres..... them's banned on the Taita Gorge Railway. I was looking at cashing in my life savings, mortgaging the house, just finding money, to get me an LGB Allegra railcar that I liked so much, then, I found they come with traction tyres, sorry Mr Lehmann, no sale.

 

[dunnyrail]

Removing the skate and some bending it should resolve the issue, have had a similar problem with Train Line 45 points. The skates are tricky to bend so removal from the loco is a must. I have on this cartoon attempted to show what to do, in all cases the bend is not much perhaps 2-3 mm at most.

 

[Lez2000]

Can you post another picture of the frog, further away, but same angle, without the car/skate?

I'm not quite understanding the difference between what the skate is riding on, and what is so much higher to the left.

Thanks, Greg

(I run track power, but I am skateless, nothing but irritating)

Morning Greg, additional photo as requested.

 

[Lez2000]

Thanks for all of your replies & suggestions. While I've got the skates off I think I'll try and join the skate-free fraternity, what can go wrong?

 

[stockers]

Skates make a significant difference to electrical pick up and clean rails. Every skate is its own track cleaner. Perhaps this removing of skates is why some people mistakenly think track power is problematical.
I suspect the angle of the skate is the problem here. Piko wheels normally run over R5s with no problems.