Jumping on pointwork

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DRG11

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Hi All

Im using Aristocraft large (10 foot) points on the main lines but some locos and rolling stock are jumping on the frogs of the points, looks like they are possibly riding up slightly ?,

Has anybody had this problem ? and any ideas how to stop this happening please,

Thankyou for any advice.


The only thing I have thought of is to grind the frog down a little where the edge of the wheel goes through the frog itself !!!
 
There are several things to do.... early ones need the frog filed down, but then you need to deepen the wing rail flangeways.

lots of info here, not going to duplicate it all on the forum:

Aristo Wide Radius Switches

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers
elmassian.com elmassian.com

there is that page and links to 2 more pages.

Greg
 
In the past, I have had problems with frogs jumping on my LGB points.

dig 180831001.JPG

David
 
I assume you have checked the back-to-back measurement of your wheels?

Axles are free-running?

Bogies are free to turn, and have some movement in the pivots?

Couplings are not pulling bogies out of line?

PhilP
 
I had an issue with one LGB turnout and found I had to level the switch. The weight of an engine caused the rail to dip and create a misalignment.
 
Hi,

The frogs look good but ive none of those...lol,

Yes all are free wheeling and correct measurement, still only the odd ones coming off thoy ahhhhhh
 
Agreed, if you read the suggested pages, you want to fix the frog height, the flangeway depth, then the stock rail flangeway widths and set your back to back.

Do it right and they can be VERY reliable... there are TWO wide radius switches in the following video, the train is taking the diverging route on both.

Ran like this for 5 hours... (did not derail, just got bored)

 
Hi All, Thankyou for your help with this problem, I will take a good look at it and seee whats to be done, Thankyou again.
 
What has thus far not been mentioned is that flange depth can sometimes cause the wheels to lift slightly. Greg alluded to this issue by suggesting that the wing rail flangeways be deepened (see post 2). To see if this really is your problem, remove a wheel from one of the vehicles that jumps and carefully run in across the frog. If you get a slight lift you should be able to see the flange lifted if you get your eye to the level of your point (if you can). Some older LGB wheels have much deeper flanges, I note you do not quote the wheel make that give you the issues.

As an aside I get this issue with some of my trains on Trainline 45 Points but as I run at quite slow speeds it is not really an issue for me.
 
Aristo large radius (10 ft diameter) are pretty reliable, and don't normally have frog bouncing problems, largely because the gap through the frog is shorter than on the extra large #6 point (turnout).

On the basis that previous running has been OK, my thinking would be to first check whether there is any obvious damage / movement of running surfaces around the frog. Check the flangeway for possible obstruction / damage. Check the point for level / true 9Within itself, not necessarily in relation to its surroundings). Check the check rails and ensure that they are not damaged.

If this all comes back negative, then start looking at wheels / flanges (back-to-back has already been checked I see from an earlier post).

One of the best methods of analysing persistent derailments at a specific location is to get the Mk1 eyeball down at track level and watch what is happening ;);)
 
So, LGB switches were designed as "flange bearing", in that the flangeway depth at the frog was designed to support the wheel on the flange with rolling through.

This only works if all the flanges are the same depth (and they are pretty deep too).

Aristo and other manufacturers don't do this, they design the frogs so that the wheel is supported by the wheel tread.

LGB "clones" can be either way. So here is an added complexity. In the USA most people run more variations of wheels, so flange bearing frogs do not work well.

It is NOT a simple subject, i.e. all the geometry of the wheels and the switches work together, so there is no "magic bullet" if you REALLY want to improve things.

Do it and you can duplicate my video above, don't and you will run trains that derail occasionally.

It's a simple case of effort in equals results out...

Greg
 
Greg, I agree with you up to a point (s'cuse the pun).

I run a reasonable variety of manufacturers' wheels, although I haven't undertaken a survey of the various flange sizes.

I think I only have two axles of LGB wheels with their massive flanges (and they are on the pony trucks of my scratch-built 2-6-2).

All of the others vary between Bachmann at the larger end of the flange spectrum (excluding LGB) to Tenmille which are probably on the finer end of the spectrum. I've ditched the very fine Swift Sixteen resin wheelsets as they just don't stay on anything, although I'm not sure if the problem is the profile at the flange root, or the non-metallic material.

I don't usually have any problems running through frogs - I'm loath to say that I never have a problem although, to be fair, I can't remember a derailment through the frog. I have two Aristo large (10 ft), two Aristo extra large (#6) and one USAT #6.

If I have a derailment it can be one of three things:

  1. I've forgotten to set the road correctly
  2. The point blade hasn't slid right home and the loco splits the points
  3. Obstructions on the track.
That said, as we've mentioned before, I don't go for the high speed running of long consists in the way that you do, and this may have a significant bearing on the issue.
 
What was the disagreement? :)

Hi All

Im using Aristocraft large (10 foot) points on the main lines but some locos and rolling stock are jumping on the frogs of the points, looks like they are possibly riding up slightly ?,

Has anybody had this problem ? and any ideas how to stop this happening please,

Thankyou for any advice.
 
Greg Elmassian said:
What was the disagreement? :)
Click to expand...
I suppose, simply, that I haven't actually done anything to my points, apart from running trains through them.

Which, was why I wrote post #11 - I think that something is not quite right somewhere - and no, we're not talking about between my ears :rofl::rofl:
 
You are absolutely right, check the rolling stock first, easiest to fix, but you also have to determine what standards you are using, back to back, flanges, etc.

Nothing I have ever bought was "right on" except for a couple of locos, most were way off, using the toy train standards...

But his "frog jump" needs to be investigated...

The first thing is can you select one car or loco that ALWAYS has an issue? Check out that piece of rolling stock...

If it happens on random cars, then I look at the track...

I have re-gauged EVERY piece of rolling stock to a back to back of 1.575" and thrown away all plastic wheels and poorly contoured ones (except the locos)

Greg
 
Hi All,

Ive found that its just the 2 swivel axle wagons and a 2 axle loco that are know slightly jumping up, bogie coaches and locos go over perfectly .

It looks to be a small piece of plastic on the frog itself ehere the rails join to be very slightly protruding and knocking the wagons/ loco

Ive made sure the track is level but still happens every now and then and not constantly, a lot better,

Many thanks for all the replies.
 
Rhinochugger said:
Greg, I agree with you up to a point (s'cuse the pun).

I run a reasonable variety of manufacturers' wheels, although I haven't undertaken a survey of the various flange sizes.

I think I only have two axles of LGB wheels with their massive flanges (and they are on the pony trucks of my scratch-built 2-6-2).

All of the others vary between Bachmann at the larger end of the flange spectrum (excluding LGB) to Tenmille which are probably on the finer end of the spectrum. I've ditched the very fine Swift Sixteen resin wheelsets as they just don't stay on anything, although I'm not sure if the problem is the profile at the flange root, or the non-metallic material.

I don't usually have any problems running through frogs - I'm loath to say that I never have a problem although, to be fair, I can't remember a derailment through the frog. I have two Aristo large (10 ft), two Aristo extra large (#6) and one USAT #6.

If I have a derailment it can be one of three things:

  1. I've forgotten to set the road correctly
  2. The point blade hasn't slid right home and the loco splits the points
  3. Obstructions on the track.
That said, as we've mentioned before, I don't go for the high speed running of long consists in the way that you do, and this may have a significant bearing on the issue.
Click to expand...

Not to derail this thread but I'd love to hear about people's reality of reliability of points. Our railway is still under construction but the long weekend has resulted in us running trains for several hours. I'd say we're at 90% reliability and I could confidently let the trains go around the both loops without issues (after some trouble shooting by swapping out a dodgy point). We're talking probably 1 derailment an hour which I was quite content with for this stage. However, it isn't 100% (to Greg's impressive 5hr running time) but occasionally would get a blade not setting correctly (worse on the double reverse loops where the train relys on push through).

So to my question - when out in the wild what is the reality/frequency of issues occurring?
 
I am a simple man - I manually operate my points and I don't (intentionally) allow push through.

As I mentioned earlier, wrong setting of points leads to occasional derailments. Once I have the roads set, the trains will run faultlessly - and as I've mentioned a few times before, I am expert in badly laid track ;);)

I predominantly run bogie stock, most of which have body mounted couplers, and have just a few short wheelbase, 4-wheel trucks. I have two 4-wheel cabooses, one of which is fully sprung on an Aristo chassis, the other of which runs on an equalised chassis.

Manual operation allows you to check that the blade has fully gone across :nod::nod: but I appreciate that some people will want remote operation.

Having said that, I notice that the spring in one of my Aristo #6 points is weak on one side, and the blade is not fully touching the stock rail - maintenance will be required before the full summer running.
 
I have mostly LGB points and an electric double-slip switch, plus 2 sets of R2 Trainline45 points, a set of Trainline45 curved (R3/R5) points and a set of Peko curved (R3/R2) points. Apart from one issue with a poorly manufactured LGB R3 point (exchanged by retailer) I have not encountered issues with stock derailing over any LGB equipment.

I don’t measure the gauge of the wheel sets, I just take the wagons or coaches out of the box and run them. I may swap plastic wheels for metal ones when I can afford them - I’ve used a mix of LGB, Slaters and GRS wheels all without issue.

The Peko curved points have also been fine but the Trainline45 points were a PITA to set up as they seemed highly sensitive to being dead level to work properly. I also have had the Trainline45 “bounce” with stock running through the points but, as is explained in another thread by Jon Dunnyrail, there is a simple fix for this.

I don’t push through points intentionally, I followed guidance on the Massoth Wiki to automate setting points correctly on my reversing loop and Wye junction.

Overall, apart from the Trainline45 points above, I guess I’m the statistical anomaly as my stuff just works out of the box which is how I want it. (Even if I had a device for measuring the distance between wheels I wouldn’t have a clue how to change it if it wasn’t ideal).

Best wishes
 
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