How would you advise someone converting to digital?
- Thread starter RH Prague
- Start date
Just found the Two Ronnies doing the sketch but I am pretty sure Benny Hill did it first.
David
I got into dcc a several years ago. As everyone in my local club was really doing battery I had no one to turn to for advice. I also turned to forums for help. The first thing I bought was an NCE which works great but did not always like to talk to LGB equipment. Sold it and got a LGB command station 3 and a massoth navigator. Loved the navigator but found the LGB station to be somewhat limiting. I next added a piko command station which worked very nicely with my 2 navigators. I used this system for 3 years and had a very dependable system. I converted well over 40 locos to DCC and was very happy with the move I made from all battery to DCC. Than last year I bought an ESU eCos 2 for my on30 layout in the basement. (My winter fun) Liked it so much I got one for the outdoor layout with an 8 amp booster. I really like there new handheld unit which uses symbols for the functions. It can be a little confusing with so many locos what function does what. So that is a quick summery of my experience. I really enjoy the electronics and ESU should not become obsolete in my lifetime. (Just cause I'm pretty old LOL) Just a side note the new LGB with MFX is (M4 protocol) is instantly recognized by the system.
So, as it often happens in the states, someone asks what DCC system is best and the thread devolves into DC vs RC vs DCC!
I researched DCC pretty well before I started, and at the time I was told it was impossible out doors. I found an engineer (indeed a rocket scientist) who took things as problems to solve, not listening to baseless opinions. His wisdom and expertise started me off.
Unfortunately my favorite system is the NCE DCC system, which has a lot of positive attributes, easy and straightforward, good balance of buttons and menus, easily visible in direct sunlight, etc. It will program anything, and has the full gamut of capability. Highly expandable, several throttle options, and an HONEST 10 amps of capability (will handle surges of 20).
I say unfortunately because NCE still uses a wireless frequency you cannot use in Europe.
Recently I changed over to Zimo. The quality is very high, the capability is beyond all other systems I have used, but the firmware is young, not all functions are implemented. The base hardware though is great, and I have confidence that more and more features will be added, and more importantly that the hardware will stay stable and handle the increased functions. The system will supply up to 20 amps, the full 24 volts, and has many sophisticated features, above the Massoth and other top end systems.
Greg
I researched DCC pretty well before I started, and at the time I was told it was impossible out doors. I found an engineer (indeed a rocket scientist) who took things as problems to solve, not listening to baseless opinions. His wisdom and expertise started me off.
Unfortunately my favorite system is the NCE DCC system, which has a lot of positive attributes, easy and straightforward, good balance of buttons and menus, easily visible in direct sunlight, etc. It will program anything, and has the full gamut of capability. Highly expandable, several throttle options, and an HONEST 10 amps of capability (will handle surges of 20).
I say unfortunately because NCE still uses a wireless frequency you cannot use in Europe.
Recently I changed over to Zimo. The quality is very high, the capability is beyond all other systems I have used, but the firmware is young, not all functions are implemented. The base hardware though is great, and I have confidence that more and more features will be added, and more importantly that the hardware will stay stable and handle the increased functions. The system will supply up to 20 amps, the full 24 volts, and has many sophisticated features, above the Massoth and other top end systems.
Greg
I use two different DCC systems..
At Chasewater we use a Massoth 1200z and as many Navigators as operators bring!
This layout uses Massoth point decoders, many with spare-ways, as each baseboard with a point (or points) has a decoder on it! - The layout was a properly built exhibition layout, and no expense was spared..
I am slowly using the spare channels on these decoders for lighting and other effects..
Most of the loco's are HSB / DR, except for the visitors, or if we get bored!
The layout is end-to-end, so we added a continuous loop round the outside, as if you get talking to the public you tend to take your eye off the train!! - This loop is analogue.
At home, I use a Digitrax Zephyr, I have a couple of DCS50 booster / CS and a DT402 throttle..
This was my late Fathers.. I didn't even know he had it (the Zephyr).
I use it mainly on a three-foot length of track on the bench. 19V and limited current capacity is 'kinder' whilst installing if things do not go as they should. - So far, I have not blown a decoder with this CS.
There are limitations. 9 functions, there are 'features' with older LGB decoders (serial command options), and there is a difference of opinion between Digitrax and Massoth where addresses '1' and '2' are involved.
It will (just) give enough current to drive a big Aristocraft loco, but probably not if you want to run full-tilt, smoke, and a Phoenix Sound card at high volume!!
At Chasewater we use a Massoth 1200z and as many Navigators as operators bring!
This layout uses Massoth point decoders, many with spare-ways, as each baseboard with a point (or points) has a decoder on it! - The layout was a properly built exhibition layout, and no expense was spared..
I am slowly using the spare channels on these decoders for lighting and other effects..
Most of the loco's are HSB / DR, except for the visitors, or if we get bored!
The layout is end-to-end, so we added a continuous loop round the outside, as if you get talking to the public you tend to take your eye off the train!! - This loop is analogue.
At home, I use a Digitrax Zephyr, I have a couple of DCS50 booster / CS and a DT402 throttle..
This was my late Fathers.. I didn't even know he had it (the Zephyr).
I use it mainly on a three-foot length of track on the bench. 19V and limited current capacity is 'kinder' whilst installing if things do not go as they should. - So far, I have not blown a decoder with this CS.
There are limitations. 9 functions, there are 'features' with older LGB decoders (serial command options), and there is a difference of opinion between Digitrax and Massoth where addresses '1' and '2' are involved.
It will (just) give enough current to drive a big Aristocraft loco, but probably not if you want to run full-tilt, smoke, and a Phoenix Sound card at high volume!!
The Wild Strawberry Line was run with a 10 amp NCE PowerPro DCC system. I found the throttles to be comfortable and friendly to use, and fully featured. Easy to interface with a PC & JMRI. I particularly like the Mini-Panel interface module which I used for creating a proper mimic control panel with push-buttons for my points (DCC controlled with NCE decoders).
I experimented with running the line from a laptop, but to be honest I much prefer a proper throttle with a knob. I'm not keen on operating using a smartphone either.
Greg commented on the legaility of NCE's radio frequency here in the UK. That was certainly the case when I bought my system, however I'm pretty sure there were some changes to the regs a few years ago which allows the wireless system to be used here nowadays. I'd certainly like to go wireless for the next line when I get arround to building it.
I experimented with running the line from a laptop, but to be honest I much prefer a proper throttle with a knob. I'm not keen on operating using a smartphone either.
Greg commented on the legaility of NCE's radio frequency here in the UK. That was certainly the case when I bought my system, however I'm pretty sure there were some changes to the regs a few years ago which allows the wireless system to be used here nowadays. I'd certainly like to go wireless for the next line when I get arround to building it.
Thans Neil. Of course that must be it, as the locos speed up as soon as they cross a certain point. Deary me, I should have been able to work that out for myself 
Anyway everyone, thanks for moving this along. It's really useful. While a lot of the "are you sure?" posts did make me think, I am still convinced I want to go to the dark side
. I like and use my sound locos (and the smoke) but want to have greater control over that sound; I don't think I will ever have many railway friends out here, unfortunately, but I do think neighbours with kids will enjoy visiting and having their own loco to control. There is one enthusiast I know, who also is a retailer whom I plan to consult and to lean on to help with the set-up.
In keeping with my general complete lack of knowledge of the subject, could someone please summarise what the various essentials are that I am going to need at the outset? Including readying the locos - I understand that they will vary. For example the ZB "Raimund" I acquired had a number on a label on its roof, so I assume it is already chipped. Generally what are the costs per loco? One of the posts above mentioned a figure that made me gulp a bit. And as for 23 locos...
Anyway everyone, thanks for moving this along. It's really useful. While a lot of the "are you sure?" posts did make me think, I am still convinced I want to go to the dark side
. I like and use my sound locos (and the smoke) but want to have greater control over that sound; I don't think I will ever have many railway friends out here, unfortunately, but I do think neighbours with kids will enjoy visiting and having their own loco to control. There is one enthusiast I know, who also is a retailer whom I plan to consult and to lean on to help with the set-up. In keeping with my general complete lack of knowledge of the subject, could someone please summarise what the various essentials are that I am going to need at the outset? Including readying the locos - I understand that they will vary. For example the ZB "Raimund" I acquired had a number on a label on its roof, so I assume it is already chipped. Generally what are the costs per loco? One of the posts above mentioned a figure that made me gulp a bit. And as for 23 locos...
Good for you, the so called dark side is not that dark!
The essentials are a power supply, command station and cab controller/throttle.
As someone else has said best to buy from one manufacturer.
As for cost per loco, can be zero for an MTS/decoder fitted loco to £30 for a single motor loco with no sound to £150 for sound on a two motor loco.
The essentials are a power supply, command station and cab controller/throttle.
As someone else has said best to buy from one manufacturer.
As for cost per loco, can be zero for an MTS/decoder fitted loco to £30 for a single motor loco with no sound to £150 for sound on a two motor loco.
I concur, but with a reservation if you're in the UK. Decoder prices in Euro seem stable but the £ has devalued so if you also need to buy a suitable speaker I'd budget nearer £200 for a twin motor sound installation
OK, Some part numbers for you. I use Massoth so that's what I'll illustrate here, but there of course others,
If you get a grasp of the kit from one make, its fairly easy to visualise the kit from another.
As Dave said above- You will need a base station (central station - same thing)
The Dimax 2010Z
You need a power supply
The Dimax 1200T. This will give you up to 12 amps of power at about 22 volts - loads of power.
(Transformers are now a thing of the past - its now a 'switching power supply - does a similar thing only uses electronics rather than wire coils. It is more efficient)
You need a controller
The Dimax Navigator. This runs trains but can also do basic programming (CV's)
That will get you running.
For your locos you need decoders.
The L and XL will drive your trains, the XL being more powerful for two or more motors.
For sound you want the LS and XLS, also a speaker - the 8241010 fits most things.
To add sound to existing DCC fitted locos you use the eMotion S
Moving forward for wireless controller you need the receiver - Dimax RC receiver, and the transmitter for your Navigator - Dimax RC transmitter. (this can be got ready installed in your Navigator when you buy it).
There US and EU transmitters - In Prague I am pretty certain you'll want the EU one.
That's about it. you can add points decoders and all sorts of automation later.
Also - there is the Dimax PC module, this is an easy way to play around with CVs and updates to software.
Find a dealer and take this list with you. Ask more questions here and the best of luck.
You probably know but Massoth is a German brand and is mostly made in Germany - so it may be cheaper from there.
Have a nose around here.
http://www.massoth.com/index.en.html
If you get a grasp of the kit from one make, its fairly easy to visualise the kit from another.
As Dave said above- You will need a base station (central station - same thing)
The Dimax 2010Z
You need a power supply
The Dimax 1200T. This will give you up to 12 amps of power at about 22 volts - loads of power.
(Transformers are now a thing of the past - its now a 'switching power supply - does a similar thing only uses electronics rather than wire coils. It is more efficient)
You need a controller
The Dimax Navigator. This runs trains but can also do basic programming (CV's)
That will get you running.
For your locos you need decoders.
The L and XL will drive your trains, the XL being more powerful for two or more motors.
For sound you want the LS and XLS, also a speaker - the 8241010 fits most things.
To add sound to existing DCC fitted locos you use the eMotion S
Moving forward for wireless controller you need the receiver - Dimax RC receiver, and the transmitter for your Navigator - Dimax RC transmitter. (this can be got ready installed in your Navigator when you buy it).
There US and EU transmitters - In Prague I am pretty certain you'll want the EU one.
That's about it. you can add points decoders and all sorts of automation later.
Also - there is the Dimax PC module, this is an easy way to play around with CVs and updates to software.
Find a dealer and take this list with you. Ask more questions here and the best of luck.
You probably know but Massoth is a German brand and is mostly made in Germany - so it may be cheaper from there.
Have a nose around here.
http://www.massoth.com/index.en.html
I did check the regulations and it looks like the NCE system at 916.5 MHz is ok if EIRP is either 25 or 100 mw.... so probably legal now.. hmm...
Greg
Greg
When I purchased my NCE 10 amp system the frequency was legal outside the U.S. only in Canada and Australia. It was some years ago so frequency regulations have possibly changed.
Only downside (apart from the awkwardly shaped transmitter - not ergonomic) I found with the NCE was the signal was not very strong and if an operator was not directly inline with the aerial then reception dropped rapidly making a repeater station essential if the trains were out of sight of the aerial.
I really don't think I could add much to this thread by stating my own preferences - but I would just like to ask a couple questions ....
When considering taking DCC equiped locos to another track, or exhibition layout, or 'get together', or whatever - would it be neccessary to ascertain the technical details of the equipment in use at the destination track? And if so, what exactly would I need to check?
Or can I pretty much just turn up and expect to be able to run most of the time?
When considering taking DCC equiped locos to another track, or exhibition layout, or 'get together', or whatever - would it be neccessary to ascertain the technical details of the equipment in use at the destination track? And if so, what exactly would I need to check?
Or can I pretty much just turn up and expect to be able to run most of the time?
Most decoders will work with most systems.(Tempted to say all with all - but there are bound to be the odd exception)
The only big difference is that older systems may only handle low address codes (Usually up to 23).
Speed steps can be different but this rarely stops the locos running but can do odd things with the lights. Typically, they may be on when using even numbered speed steps and off when using odd numbered steps!
You also need enough power - amps - as well but this is not often a problem unless running several locos at once.
The only big difference is that older systems may only handle low address codes (Usually up to 23).
Speed steps can be different but this rarely stops the locos running but can do odd things with the lights. Typically, they may be on when using even numbered speed steps and off when using odd numbered steps!
You also need enough power - amps - as well but this is not often a problem unless running several locos at once.