ESU CabControl - Changing Address on LGB/MFX?

[Dan]

I have used my Zimo system to help several people set up their locos from Marklin. Write cv 50 to 2 which gives DC and DCC operation. Also to set a long address without railcom set CV 29 to 38, and then the engine number goes in CV17 and 18. CV 17 is the address divided by 256 plus 192. CV18 is the remainder from the division. For some people they just google this as there are programs out there which will give you the CV 17 and 18 numbers.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

CV29 = 38 is long address, DC operation and 28 speed steps...

It's good to really understand what the bits do, instead of just using a "magic" decimal number:

DCC CV29 Calculator

The 2mm Scale Association Website

www.2mm.org.uk

 

[LGB333]

I mentioned this to Andrew when we talked yesterday on the phone. I've contacted one of my customers that bought the ESU CabControl System from me and he's going to Read and Write a CV on his MSD3-equipped LGB locomotive and report back to me the results in a couple days.......and I'll share it with everyone.

I suspect there's no issue with the CabControl Reading and Writing CVs on these LGB locomotives with the MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog decodes. I can do so with my Massoth DiMax 1210z Command Station and the new MD-Electronics (MDE) PC Decoder Programming Module, as I've already mentioned, I'm now selling as an MDE Dealer on my Website.

Okay, I've received feedback from a customer that uses the ESU CabControl DCC System. He tried to Read CV1 on his LGB 20752 DR 0-4-0 Steamer with the MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoder install produced by Marklin in 2018. He was not able to do so and received an error fault from the CabControl. Note that Marklin upgraded this decoder in 2019 which I believe will solve the problem using the CabControl. Why: Because I recently tested the MD-Electronics PC Programming Module to Read and Write CVs on my LGB 28443 RhB LGB 50th Anniversary Electric Locomotive, also produced in 2018, and received a fault error........would not work. I then used the MD-Electronics PC Programming Module to Read and Write the CVs on my LGB 26845 DR Mallet Steamer, produced by Marklin in 2019 with the upgraded MSD3 sound decoder, and had no problem Reading and Writing CVs. So, there's some inherent design problem in Marklin's earlier sound decoders that's preventing some DCC systems to Read and Write CVs.

You may recall in 2018 that just about all of the LGB sound locomotives Marklin produced had a statement in the User Guide that indicated the locomotive could be operated in DC analog but the sound was turned off. So Marklin realized their original designed MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoders had internal conflicts setting the mfx and dcc to operate with sound AND DC analog, all at the same time. I even tried turning off the mfx in CV50 on the LGB 28443's decoder but still received the fault error using the MD-Electronics Programming Module. However, I could Read and Write CVs with my Massoth DiMax 1210z Command Station. Bottom line: Some DCC systems are not able to Read and Write the older Marklin MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoders produced prior to 2019. And you'll also see that all the literature Marklin issues for their recently produced LGB locomotives clearly states "Operating Sounds also work in DC analog."

 

[AMuller396]

Okay, I've received feedback from a customer that uses the ESU CabControl DCC System. He tried to Read CV1 on his LGB 20752 DR 0-4-0 Steamer with the MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoder install produced by Marklin in 2018. He was not able to do so and received an error fault from the CabControl. Note that Marklin upgraded this decoder in 2019 which I believe will solve the problem using the CabControl. Why: Because I recently tested the MD-Electronics PC Programming Module to Read and Write CVs on my LGB 28443 RhB LGB 50th Anniversary Electric Locomotive, also produced in 2018, and received a fault error........would not work. I then used the MD-Electronics PC Programming Module to Read and Write the CVs on my LGB 26845 DR Mallet Steamer, produced by Marklin in 2019 with the upgraded MSD3 sound decoder, and had no problem Reading and Writing CVs. So, there's some inherent design problem in Marklin's earlier sound decoders that's preventing some DCC systems to Read and Write CVs.

You may recall in 2018 that just about all of the LGB sound locomotives Marklin produced had a statement in the User Guide that indicated the locomotive could be operated in DC analog but the sound was turned off. And it required using a Marklin CS2/3 Command Station to turn it on, other brand DCC systems couldn't do it. So Marklin realized their original designed MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoders had internal conflicts setting the mfx and dcc to operate with sound AND DC analog, all at the same time. I even tried turning off the mfx in CV50 on the LGB 26845's decoder but still received the fault error using the MD-Electronics Programming Module. However, I could Read and Write CVs with my Massoth DiMax 1210z Command Station. Bottom line: Some DCC systems are not able to Read and Write the older Marklin MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoders produced prior to 2019. And you'll also see that all the literature Marklin issues for their recently produced LGB locomotives clearly states "Operating Sounds also work in DC analog."

I think the issue here is not if one can change CV’s on a Marklin msd3 on any full blown digital system such as NCE, ECOS, CS3, Massoth etc, it’s the fact that Cabcontrol isn’t able to! And I believe the person that commented on the ESU forum is correct that the Cabcontrol just isn’t capable of handling the change because the electronics/hardware doesn’t allow it to go over a certain voltage because it thinks that it’s going to break the locomotive in the programming track, so it shuts the system down. CanControl primarily is an item geared for smaller scale. The extra voltage for the converter was just added to make sure it’s G scale compatible but I doubt they did a full blown test on how it works in real life using Gscale.

I’d really would like Alec from ESU to comment on this issue (he has said that Cabcontrol reads dcc so all LGB trains have that priority so msd3 isn’t really the issue) because I’m sure he or ESU doesn’t know the answer, they haven’t tested it! But I might be wrong and that would be a pleasant surprise. Cabcontrol is a nice setup especially for beginners like me, but if your only able to run 1 train on the track it gets boring real quick! ECOS would be a good step up, but with lack/extremely slow response from their team on emails I just switched to the competitor.

I’m on CS3 right now and am actually liking the setup, so far am able to run 3 trains, and am sure it can handle more.

Andrew

 

[LGB333]

I think the issue here is not if one can change CV’s on a Marklin msd3 on any full blown digital system such as NCE, ECOS, CS3, Massoth etc, it’s the fact that Cabcontrol isn’t able to! And I believe the person that commented on the ESU forum is correct that the Cabcontrol just isn’t capable of handling the change because the electronics/hardware doesn’t allow it to go over a certain voltage because it thinks that it’s going to break the locomotive in the programming track, so it shuts the system down. CanControl primarily is an item geared for smaller scale. The extra voltage for the converter was just added to make sure it’s G scale compatible but I doubt they did a full blown test on how it works in real life using Gscale.

I’d really would like Alec from ESU to comment on this issue (he has said that Cabcontrol reads dcc so all LGB trains have that priority so msd3 isn’t really the issue) because I’m sure he or ESU doesn’t know the answer, they haven’t tested it! But I might be wrong and that would be a pleasant surprise. Cabcontrol is a nice setup especially for beginners like me, but if your only able to run 1 train on the track it gets boring real quick! ECOS would be a good step up, but with lack/extremely slow response from their team on emails I just switched to the competitor.

I’m on CS3 right now and am actually liking the setup, so far am able to run 3 trains, and am sure it can handle more.

Andrew

Andrew - I agree with you, there's a problem with the CabControl system with the older versions of the Marklin MSD3 sound decoders, pre-2019. But I'm not aware that the CabControl has any problem Reading and Writing CVs of any other brand DCC decoders. But, if my theory is correct, the CabControl will properly program the newer Marklin MSD3 decoders, but I'm basing that on the test with my MD-Electronics PC Programmer. Regardless, ESU should fix it. Not sure if the ESU ECOS DCC protocol has the same issue or not........needs testing.

Why do you state you can only operate one locomotive at a time with the CabControl.......it has a 7 amp DC power supply that's more than the CS3's 5 amp power supply? Did you use the CabControl and try operating more than one locomotive at the same time? When ESU LLC USA developed the CabControl for the US market (it's not sold in Europe), they touted it to be a multi-scale DCC system with its adjustable DC power supply, 14 - 21 volts, 7 amps.

 

[AMuller396]

Andrew - I agree with you, there's a problem with the CabControl system with the older versions of the Marklin MSD3 sound decoders, pre-2019. But I'm not aware that the CabControl has any problem Reading and Writing CVs of any other brand DCC decoders. But, if my theory is correct, the CabControl will properly program the newer Marklin MSD3 decoders, but I'm basing that on the test with my MD-Electronics PC Programmer. Regardless, ESU should fix it. Not sure if the ESU ECOS DCC protocol has the same issue or not........needs testing.

Why do you state you can only operate one locomotive at a time with the CabControl.......it has a 7 amp DC power supply that's more than the CS3's 5 amp power supply? Did you use the CabControl and try operating more than one locomotive at the same time? When ESU LLC USA developed the CabControl for the US market (it's not sold in Europe), they touted it to be a multi-scale DCC system with its adjustable DC power supply, 14 - 21 volts, 7 amps.

I tried checking the CV’s on my new LGB 26600 (2021 model) and the Cabcontrol errors out as well. So it’s not just the year I think it’s the size of the locomotive. I would bet that the Cabcontrol won’t be able to change any CV for any G scale train! (I hope I’m wrong)

With regards to the Cabcontrol, one can only run 1 train because you can’t change the address on a second train if the second train has an initial address of 3 as well! Now if you get multiple trains with different address then yes Cabcontrol has no issue running them, but how does one change address if Cabcontrol can’t! It defeats the purpose you might as well purchase a full blown dcc than the Cabcontrol. Cabcontrol is good for smaller scale but not for Gscale.

 

[phils2um]

Why do you state you can only operate one locomotive at a time with the CabControl....

I suspect Andrew said this because the default address is 3. If he cannot change loco addresses he is limited to one loco no matter how many amps the system can put out.

 

[phils2um]

but I'm basing that on the test with my MD-Electronics PC Programmer.

His problem is with the ESU system. What the MD-Electronics programmer can do is does not matter to him!

 

[Greg Elmassian]

When programming CVs in service mode (programming by itself is ambiguous), I did not notice that the difference in voltage made the difference, but difference in current.

I would not be surprised if a G scale loco with a G scale motor would draw more current on the programming track, but it would seem that this could only be when the motor was pulsing...

It does not make direct sense to me that G scale decoders by virtue of more motor current could have more programming issues because of different motors.

To be specific, I don't see any evidence to support this: "Cabcontrol is good for smaller scale but not for Gscale."

Sounds like poorly designed decoders that are problematic and have been shown to be problematic on several different DCC systems.

Greg

 

[LGB333]

I tried checking the CV’s on my new LGB 26600 (2021 model) and the Cabcontrol errors out as well. So it’s not just the year I think it’s the size of the locomotive. I would bet that the Cabcontrol won’t be able to change any CV for any G scale train! (I hope I’m wrong)

With regards to the Cabcontrol, one can only run 1 train because you can’t change the address on a second train if the second train has an initial address of 3 as well! Now if you get multiple trains with different address then yes Cabcontrol has no issue running them, but how does one change address if Cabcontrol can’t! It defeats the purpose you might as well purchase a full blown dcc than the Cabcontrol. Cabcontrol is good for smaller scale but not for Gscale.

Andrew - Thanks for testing the CabControl on your newer post-2018 LGB locomotive.........how unfortunate that ESU designed a DCC system that can't Read and Write CVs, as Greg correctly states, in Service Mode, on the Marklin MSD3 decoders. I've sold over 15 of the CabControl systems to customers and no one has alerted me to any issues with programming their locomotives. But many US hobbyists are still using the LGB locomotives produced by the original LGB company or by Marklin prior to 2014, the year Marklin started installing their MSD3 sound decoders into the LGB locomotives they produced. Marklin also uses a different version of the MSD3 decoders for their smaller scale products. Perhaps Greg may know, but Marklin might not be in compliance with the NMRA Standard for DCC if there are compliant DCC command stations that can't properly program their decoders. We know that Marklin's unique design of integrating two different technologies into one decoder, mfx and dcc, is probably the issue. Having to acquire a mfx command station to program the MSD3 decoders in LGB locomotives doesn't seem appropriate when Marklin touts them as DCC-equipped.

I'm going to contact ESU and ask that they correct the design flaw in the CabControl DCC system regarding programming of MSD3 decoders in LGB locomotives.........other brand DCC command stations are able to program the MSD3 decoders and so should the CabControl.

 

[LGB333]

Update: I asked Andrew to try Reading and Writing the CVs on his LGB locomotives with Marklin's MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog onboard decoders using the CabControl's Operations Mode (POM) method and a separate programming track. He says the ESU CabControl could not program the CVs in both Service Mode and Operations Mode. That's really bad! But more ammo for my complaint to ESU LLC USA! I'll let everyone know what response I receive.

Thoughts?

Here's another test I'm going to do myself next week to see it might overcome the CV programming issue: Connect a Soundtraxx PTB-100 Programming Track Booster to the ESU CabControl's Programming Track Output.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I have one of those, been around for a long time. It did help once long ago, but not recently.

Since I have a Zimo, I can control the service mode current and voltage...

By the way, when I read a sentence like this:
try Reading and Writing the CVs on his LGB locomotives with Marklin's MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog onboard decoders using the CabControl's Operations Mode (POM) method and a separate programming track."

I feel it causes and continues to cause confusion with people that don't understand. You sentence literally says that you can read CVs in POM... nope... you can with Railcomm and other technologies, but strictly speaking POM CANNOT READ BACK

If you take a survey of all the threads where someone cannot read CVs and "cannot read back", most of them are because the user has no clue if they are in POM or the NMRA defined "service mode"...

Likewise many people think because the loco is physically "on the programming track" they are in service mode.

This confusion seems to happen about 3 out of 4 times... and your sentence implying you can read a CV in POM is wrong and honestly just helps contribute to confusion.

I don't know how to make this better but it is a mess.

Greg

 

[AMuller396]

I have one of those, been around for a long time. It did help once long ago, but not recently.

Since I have a Zimo, I can control the service mode current and voltage...

By the way, when I read a sentence like this:
try Reading and Writing the CVs on his LGB locomotives with Marklin's MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog onboard decoders using the CabControl's Operations Mode (POM) method and a separate programming track."

I feel it causes and continues to cause confusion with people that don't understand. You sentence literally says that you can read CVs in POM... nope... you can with Railcomm and other technologies, but strictly speaking POM CANNOT READ BACK

If you take a survey of all the threads where someone cannot read CVs and "cannot read back", most of them are because the user has no clue if they are in POM or the NMRA defined "service mode"...

Likewise many people think because the loco is physically "on the programming track" they are in service mode.

This confusion seems to happen about 3 out of 4 times... and your sentence implying you can read a CV in POM is wrong and honestly just helps contribute to confusion.

I don't know how to make this better but it is a mess.

Greg

So with regards to the Cabcontrol only, I dont know with any other system, the way Ive been doing it is as follows:

1.) Insert plug to "B O PROG" attach wire to a single LGB 10610 to power track.
2.) Place Train on said track and fire up CabControl *Yes the train is fully functional at this point moves and gives sound.
From here you have 2 options:
Either A) click on "DCC ADDRESS" and hit "READ" = this errors out
or B) click on "READ / WRITE CVS" and inputing CV 1= this error out as well

I still believe the comment left on ESU forum:

"It looks/sounds like the current demanded by the loco during programming is above the acceptable upper limit set in the ICU. As a result, it cuts the power to prevent what it thinks could be a damagingly high current and reports a programming error. Unfortunately, there seems to be no way in the CabControl system to set a higher limit when programming larger scale/gauge locos like yours."

Hence the suggestion above to use a booster.

In the end I didn't want to buy a booster just to try it out if it works, so I just went ahead and purchased a full blown DCC system. I do want to hear from ESU though on this issue since its very interesting to get a solved answer.

Andrew

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I went back and read about half of the posts.... I did not see that you have been successful reading any CVs.

So, can you read any CV on any decoder?

Interested to know what DCC system you bought, hope you have better luck!

Greg

 

[AMuller396]

I went back and read about half of the posts.... I did not see that you have been successful reading any CVs.

So, can you read any CV on any decoder?

Interested to know what DCC system you bought, hope you have better luck!

Greg

Bought the CS3. It works right off the bat. It automatically just changes address for all mfx locos. I haven't tried changing address using CV, but have no reason to do so right now. I am able to run 3 trains without issue. My next future purchase would be the Piko BR 103 (37440) and try and install a ESU decoder on it myself. Im assuming that needs to be run via DCC (I don't think ESU has a MFX decoder), but haven't looked much into it yet.



*Don't judge on the Playmobil analog layout in the background

Andrew

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Good for you! Sounds like problem solved.

Have you mixed in any non-mfx locos yet?

anyway, good!

Greg

 

[AMuller396]

Good for you! Sounds like problem solved.

Have you mixed in any non-mfx locos yet?

anyway, good!

Greg

No, since I don't have one! But will keep you guys posted if and when that does occur.

Andrew

 

[phils2um]

(I don't think ESU has a MFX decoder)

Actually ESU's V4.0 and V5.0 multi-protocol decoders are mfx compatible (ESU calls it M4 protocol because of trademark issues). These decoders will self register and operate without problems with a CS3 or earlier Märklin mfx central stations. I converted and ran my first LGB analog locos with ESU V4.0 LokPilot decoders using the M4 protocol on my Märklin CS3 based RR. I bought the ESU LokProgrammer to do their programming so can't vouch for ease of programming with the CS3. Eventually, I disabled the M4 (mfx) protocol on these decoders and now run these locos with DCC protocol mainly because I wanted to assign my own loco addresses.

Have you mixed in any non-mfx locos yet?

I operate with both mfx and DCC protocols active on my CS3 and have no problems mixing and matching mfx and DCC locos.

Edited to clarify - I have a tendency toward run-on sentences!

 

[LGB333]

Good for you! Sounds like problem solved.

Have you mixed in any non-mfx locos yet?

anyway, good!

Greg

I have one of those, been around for a long time. It did help once long ago, but not recently.

Since I have a Zimo, I can control the service mode current and voltage...

By the way, when I read a sentence like this:
try Reading and Writing the CVs on his LGB locomotives with Marklin's MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog onboard decoders using the CabControl's Operations Mode (POM) method and a separate programming track."

I feel it causes and continues to cause confusion with people that don't understand. You sentence literally says that you can read CVs in POM... nope... you can with Railcomm and other technologies, but strictly speaking POM CANNOT READ BACK

If you take a survey of all the threads where someone cannot read CVs and "cannot read back", most of them are because the user has no clue if they are in POM or the NMRA defined "service mode"...

Likewise many people think because the loco is physically "on the programming track" they are in service mode.

This confusion seems to happen about 3 out of 4 times... and your sentence implying you can read a CV in POM is wrong and honestly just helps contribute to confusion.

I don't know how to make this better but it is a mess.

Greg

Greg - I must take exception to your following statement:
"By the way, when I read a sentence like this: try Reading and Writing the CVs on his LGB locomotives with Marklin's MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog onboard decoders using the CabControl's Operations Mode (POM) method and a separate programming track." I feel it causes and continues to cause confusion with people that don't understand. You sentence literally says that you can read CVs in POM... nope... you can with Railcomm and other technologies, but strictly speaking POM CANNOT READ BACK."

The first DCC command station I bought five years ago is a Piko 35010 Digital Central Station produced by Massoth for Piko, and a Massoth Navigator. It has no Service Mode Programming Output Terminals, only the 20 volts DCC output to an operating track layout. But prior to acquiring the Massoth DiMax 1210z Central Station I've used for the last 3 plus years, I used the Piko unit with a separate piece of track to set up DCC sound decoders in my DCC conversions, and to Read and Write CVs on my decoder equipped LGB locomotives in the Piko's Operations (POM) Mode. In fact, I just now tested the Piko unit by placing my LGB 28443 RhB LGB 50th Anniversary locomotive with the older-version MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoder and Read CV1=50, the locomotive's assigned Address, and then Wrote CV1=50, both achieving the required Check Mark on the Navigator and the locomotive jumping back and forth, both indicating that the settings commands were successful. So, could you clarify what you mean that "strictly speaking POM CANNOT READ BACK"?

 

[LGB333]

Bought the CS3. It works right off the bat. It automatically just changes address for all mfx locos. I haven't tried changing address using CV, but have no reason to do so right now. I am able to run 3 trains without issue. My next future purchase would be the Piko BR 103 (37440) and try and install a ESU decoder on it myself. Im assuming that needs to be run via DCC (I don't think ESU has a MFX decoder), but haven't looked much into it yet.

View attachment 298178

*Don't judge on the Playmobil analog layout in the background

Andrew

Andrew - I've installed about 25 ESU 5XL sound decoders into customers' LGB locomotives over the last year or so, or sold and set them up the 5XLs for customers' DIY conversion projects. I consider these decoders the best DCC sound decoder on the market for large scale locomotive use......just my opinion having also installed the Marklin MSD3, Massoth, Soundtraxx, Phoenix, and LGB Sound Modules in lots of customers' LGB locomotives over the last four years. Others may favor Zimo which I have no experience. As Phil already mentioned, the ESU sound decoders are multi-protocol: DCC/MM/SX/M4 and DC/AC analog capable.......they are also Railcom-plus equipped. So if you have a Railcom-equipped DCC decoder installed into a locomotive, you don't need to assign an Address, but you can if you want. The ESU CabControl DCC Command Station and the ESU ECOS Multi-protocol Command Station are both Railcomplus capable. The Marklin CS command stations have their own similar protocol. You must use an ESU LokProgrammer to be able to access all the settings on the 5XL decoders..........trying to figure out doing so, even if possible by CV settings, would be probably impossible and drive someone crazy trying to figure it out in the ESU LokSound 5 Series Instruction Manual's 109 pages. I usually turn off the analog control and Railcom feature on my decoder setups unless the customer tells me they want them active.

The only feature missing on the ESU and Marklin CS3/3+ command stations is Serial Control needed for activating older LGB locomotives with analog sound boards requiring Serial control. I have two customers I've sold the ECOS and CS3+ command stations who've installed DCC decoders into their older LGB sound locomotives and can't activate all the F Key sounds, only the F1 whistle, or sometimes whistle and bell. The solution when converting these older LGB sound locomotives: Remove all the old factory electronics and install a new DCC sound decoder which has more and better features anyway! But some customers take the easy method by installing a DCC driving decoder into the LGB locomotive's DCC Interface, or, they are wedded to the old factory sound boards' sounds they heard as a kid.