Dcc how to get power to points and signals

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Greyfox

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using massoth system ,I want to use LGB 51750 so I can just push switches to work points and signals by just pushing switch on or off this is how I used on my dc system .i have taken power from my other control box LGB 51800 but I have power to box but switch do not do anything on the LGB 51750 .but I have power on 51800 and that works lights on signals and light on houses can any one help thanks paul
 
idlemarvel

idlemarvel

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13 Jul 2015
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Hi Paul,
I'm not quite sure what is behind your question. Are you wanting to control points with your Massoth system using DCC commands and keep using your 51750 to switch those points? If I have misunderstood then ignore what follows. If this is the case there are a couple of options. One is to keep the point motors as they are now controlled by "non-digital" means in which case follow the steps Greg outlines above. The other is to control your point motors with a Massoth accessory decoder, and use the on-on switches in the 51750 to control the decoder, in addition to being able to control the points with DCC commands. The Massoth accessory decoders have additional connections to allow a physical on-on switch to control points. If you want more details let us know.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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The way I read (and re-read) his only question is why doesn't my switch controller move the switch/turnout/points. I have power to it but nothing happens.

But at the very beginning the "using massoth system" is unclear... is it:

1. I'm wanting to use the DCC system to control trains, but I want the turnouts to be old school like I used to
2. or as you say Dave, I want to use the DCC system to control turnouts AND I also want my old LGB pushbutton box to control turnouts also.

Greg
 
G

Greyfox

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Hi Paul,
I'm not quite sure what is behind your question. Are you wanting to control points with your Massoth system using DCC commands and keep using your 51750 to switch those points? If I have misunderstood then ignore what follows. If this is the case there are a couple of options. One is to keep the point motors as they are now controlled by "non-digital" means in which case follow the steps Greg outlines above. The other is to control your point motors with a Massoth accessory decoder, and use the on-on switches in the 51750 to control the decoder, in addition to being able to control the points with DCC commands. The Massoth accessory decoders have additional connections to allow a physical on-on switch to control points. If you want more details let us know.
Hi I don’t know what the output is I am new to dcc , all I know is that I have massoth control box which I have taken Two wires from to my LGB 51800 which enable me to control trains and lights to points and houses,THEN I HAVE A LGB 51750 WHICH Iwant to control points ,but when I take power from my LGB 51800 nothing happens.i do not want to use mas to control this box I will just push points switches on LGB 51750 when I need to change points ,I was told I need a LGB 55025 switch decoder sorry am newbie to railways thanks paul
 
PhilP

PhilP

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Hi I don’t know what the output is I am new to dcc , all I know is that I have massoth control box which I have taken Two wires from to my LGB 51800 which enable me to control trains and lights to points and houses,THEN I HAVE A LGB 51750 WHICH Iwant to control points ,but when I take power from my LGB 51800 nothing happens.i do not want to use mas to control this box I will just push points switches on LGB 51750 when I need to change points ,I was told I need a LGB 55025 switch decoder sorry am newbie to railways thanks paul
Which Massoth 'control box' have you taken wires from?

Which connections on this box have you used?

Where have you connected them to the 51800?

How have you connected the 51800 to the 51750?

What sort of point motors do you have on your points? - 2 connections, or 3 connections?

Just need to work-through how you have connected things up. Knowing you do not want to control the point via DCC is already a big help.

PhilP.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

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As a none DCC user, reading through this it would seem the OP does NOT have the point control decoders. My understanding is either a Massoth 8156101 or LGB 55025 (others are available ;)) will need AC power in and the outlets connected to the point motors (assuming two wire), then setting up on the controller to active the motors.
 
PhilP

PhilP

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As a none DCC user, reading through this it would seem the OP does NOT have the point control decoders. My understanding is either a Massoth 8156101 or LGB 55025 (others are available ;)) will need AC power in and the outlets connected to the point motors (assuming two wire), then setting up on the controller to active the motors.
Jimmy,
'Greyfox' has stated he does not want to use Massoth to control the points, just the 51750 switch box.

If he has standard point-motors, this is do-able, but we need to know how/what is feeding power into his system, and how he has connected things together. Hence my list of questions.
Depending what he has, he could be feeding DC, AC, or DCC into his first switch box.. I assume the two boxes are just plugged together, but this is an assumption. So I am just trying to guide the OP through giving us enough information to allow us to help further.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

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So a standard analogue point system, 16vac in, and wires out to each point that needs switching, assume two wire point motors.
 
PhilP

PhilP

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So a standard analogue point system, 16vac in, and wires out to each point that needs switching, assume two wire point motors.
That is how I would do it..
I am a little concerned what the OP is feeding into his switch boxes?
 
dunnyrail

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John Russo

John Russo

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using massoth system ,I want to use LGB 51750 so I can just push switches to work points and signals by just pushing switch on or off this is how I used on my dc system

You should be able continue to use the 51750, you simply need to connect it to the track using the two power connections. The 4 device connections would remained wired as you have them.

However, that kinda defeats the purpose of DCC. Depending on your layout, using DCC decoder to control the swithes may be more trouble and expense that it is worth. The primary thing it does to eliminate having to wire every point back to your 51750. It also provide aingle interface to control the locos and the sports and signals. For a complex layout, using the hand held becomes untenable and most people then move to a computer interface.

As stated before, if you ave a Massoth system, you would use a switch decoder to control points and switches.

Here is a link for the 4 channel and 1 channel decoders.

AllAboutLGB: Massoth Switch Decoders

The decoders are connected to the track at a suitable location near the devices you will be controlling. For the 4 channel device you can connect up to four points or signals. The devices would then be controlled with you massoth handheld or with a computer interface.

Here is the manual for the decoder: https://www.allaboutlgb.com/pdfs/Massoth DiMAX 4-Channel Switch decoder II User's Manual.pdf

Out of the box, the 4 decoder ports are set to provide a 300ms DC pulse. This is suitable to control a point or signal. The decoder can be programmed and each port can behave differently. For example you can make one of the ports and On/Off switch instead of a 300ms pulse.

Programming the decoders is tricky at first but once you get the hang of it, it is no big deal. Post back if you need help.


Note: Not that you necessarily need to know this, but the AC power provided to the track by the Massoth is not a typical AC. A normal AC power supply can be represented by a Sine wave. The Massoth AC power (A,k.a DCC) is a Square wave. From a power perspective, it behaves very similar to normal AC. You can use a normal AC voltmeter to measure it. The trick is that control signals are interlaced in the power wave which allows the Massoth to use the track to provide both power and control.

This article explains it fairly simply. Digital Command Control - Wikipedia There is no magic and once you understand it a little, it all makes sense.
 
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John Russo

John Russo

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Hi I don’t know what the output is I am new to dcc , all I know is that I have massoth control box which I have taken Two wires from to my LGB 51800 which enable me to control trains and lights to points and houses,THEN I HAVE A LGB 51750 WHICH Iwant to control points ,but when I take power from my LGB 51800 nothing happens.i do not want to use mas to control this box I will just push points switches on LGB 51750 when I need to change points ,I was told I need a LGB 55025 switch decoder sorry am newbie to railways thanks paul
Get yourself a basic voltmeter. Amazon.com: Extech Digital MultiMeter: Tools & Home Improvement

The $22 MN35 is fine.

Check the voltage on the track when you turn on your system. Set the voltmeter selector to the 200V AC when measuring.

You should see something like 18-22 volts. If that is the case then connect your 51750 power input leads to the track.

If that does not work, then just connect your 51750 to your old power supply.

The switch decoders would be needed only if you make the leap to use the Massoth DCC system to control the points and signals. In that case you would sell your 51750 on ebay. You could use the money you get from that to pay for your first visit to a psychiatrist because after a few weeks of DCC you will either go crazy or drink heavily.

Only kidding. DCC is great but can drive you crazy. then again, being driven crazy is why we do this. It keeps us down the basement away from the wife in the winter because we can't play golf.


Piko came out with a DCC system that I believe is a skinnied down Massoth. Here is a video that explains using switch decoders. Jonathan does a a good job with this and other videos. While it is not your exact Massoth system, the concepts are the same.

 
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K

kevinhammond

Registered
9 Apr 2016
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Scotland
The general advice from smaller scales is to use DC for points/switch/signal motors etc. and keep DCC for locomotive control.
I would have multiple controllers if you want more than 1-2 trains running at the same time and expect to control
them (my father just has a double controller, and switching between three trains can be exciting - it's also a bit of a pain
if you want to temporarily stop a train, control another one, and then switch back to the first one :)). The nice thing
with DCC is that you get to drive the trains rather than the track, and you can get more operational flexibility.

The rationale for using DC for accessories is that the DCC point/accessory decoders are expensive, you can need quite a lot of them
(I have about 50 points on my layout in the attic), and they can be a pain to control
(e.g. if you need to remember a code number for each point). Much easier to just have a DC switch box and a CDU. That way you
can dedicate one switch to each motor, test the wiring independently etc.

The exception is that if you want to automate absolutely everything using computer control, then DCC is simpler. But I haven't seen
many layouts like that (even at exhibitions).

For what you're proposing, the main thing is to make sure you don't mix up AC and DC. The output from the DCC system (Massoth) is
an AC supply at 20V or so. The input to the switch unit (LGB) will probably be AC (either 20V or mains - don't get this wrong, of course).
If it's 20V AC, then the Massoth unit may have a suitable output that you can use (which is what people in the thread are suggesting).
The output to the switch motors will then be DC at about 20V as it was on the original layout. Apologies if this seems to be teaching
you to suck eggs, but electrics can be a pain if you get things wrong!
 
G

Greyfox

Registered
28 Jun 2019
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Farnham
Which Massoth 'control box' have you taken wires from?

Which connections on this box have you used?

Where have you connected them to the 51800?

How have you connected the 51800 to the 51750?

What sort of point motors do you have on your points? - 2 connections, or 3 connections?

Just need to work-through how you have connected things up. Knowing you do not want to control the point via DCC is already a big help.

PhilP.
Hi I have taken two wires from 8136501 TO the LGb 51800 which controls track power and lights in points and houses and I then tried to take the power to my other LGg 51750 to control points..Ihave power as the green led light shows but the point switches done work on the 51750 .all I want to do is use mascots to control trains dcc and use my original LGB boxes to control points and lights ,so I don’t understand why this is so complicated surely I should be able to just take the power from first box to second box
 
G

Greyfox

Registered
28 Jun 2019
23
0
67
Farnham
The general advice from smaller scales is to use DC for points/switch/signal motors etc. and keep DCC for locomotive control.
I would have multiple controllers if you want more than 1-2 trains running at the same time and expect to control
them (my father just has a double controller, and switching between three trains can be exciting - it's also a bit of a pain
if you want to temporarily stop a train, control another one, and then switch back to the first one :)). The nice thing
with DCC is that you get to drive the trains rather than the track, and you can get more operational flexibility.

The rationale for using DC for accessories is that the DCC point/accessory decoders are expensive, you can need quite a lot of them
(I have about 50 points on my layout in the attic), and they can be a pain to control
(e.g. if you need to remember a code number for each point). Much easier to just have a DC switch box and a CDU. That way you
can dedicate one switch to each motor, test the wiring independently etc.

The exception is that if you want to automate absolutely everything using computer control, then DCC is simpler. But I haven't seen
many layouts like that (even at exhibitions).

For what you're proposing, the main thing is to make sure you don't mix up AC and DC. The output from the DCC system (Massoth) is
an AC supply at 20V or so. The input to the switch unit (LGB) will probably be AC (either 20V or mains - don't get this wrong, of course).
If it's 20V AC, then the Massoth unit may have a suitable output that you can use (which is what people in the thread are suggesting).
The output to the switch motors will then be DC at about 20V as it was on the original layout. Apologies if this seems to be teaching
you to suck eggs, but electrics can be a pain if you get things wrong!
Hi I have taken two wires from 8136501 TO the LGb 51800 which controls track power and lights in points and houses and I then tried to take the power to my other LGg 51750 to control points..Ihave power as the green led light shows but the point switches dont work on the 51750 .all I want to do is use mascots to control trains dcc and use my original LGB boxes to control points and lights ,so I don’t understand why this is so complicated surely I should be able to just take the power from first box to second box also I have two wires going to points
 
G

Greyfox

Registered
28 Jun 2019
23
0
67
Farnham
Hi I have taken two wires from 8136501 TO the LGb 51800 which controls track power and lights in points and houses and I then tried to take the power to my other LGg 51750 to control points..Ihave power as the green led light shows but the point switches done work on the 51750 .all I want to do is use mascots to control trains dcc and use my original LGB boxes to control points and lights ,so I don’t understand why this is so complicated surely I should be able to just take the power from first box to second box
Hi I have. 6 sets of points and Two signals so I should be able to send power from massoth control unit Dimax 1210Z TO LGB BOX to switch lights on in houses and points which I have done and works ok and Trains work using massoth handsets ,so then I need to get power to other LGB box 51750 to control my points
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

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Maybe wrong, but John Russo informs that DCC AC and analogue AC are different, so you may need a standard AC power supply for your points, otherwise you may be causing damage!!