Hi, I am a fully paid up member of the battery RC approach. However if you are usjng DCC for a layout used indoors at exhibitions think hard about if its worth the efffort and cost to convert over. It's great but not DCC. Sound, control of points are all things to consider. Cheers Ian.
Changing Over To Battery Control ?
- Thread starter Graham ASH
- Start date
The main benefit is ( sorry for the PS ) instant smooth running on a big outdoor layout from my PoV.
Hi Ian, many thanks for your input. Is r/c not that good then for a indoor layout, and more than anything I suppose I enjoy the sounds of the locos and the almost instant response to my dcc units. Why do you say its expensive, others seem to be saying its not that much per loco, or are you saying the actual transmitters are expensive ?
Graham
Graham
From my personal experience...
Last year i fitted the Hobbyking R/C system with Li-on batteries into an LGB BoBo diesel. It really is great being able to just flick a switch and having a loco running instantly even on the dirtiest of track. Perfect slow running with no stalling or jerking. BUT, with the loco having 2 motors, even from the powerful battery 2-3 hours running time is MAX. If i'd have known at the time i probably would have chosen a single motor loco to convert instead. Because of this, i find that im cautious with the length/weight of the wagons i run with it.
The Loco takes a good 7 hours to charge, which means i often have to plan ahead as to when i will be wanting to run to ensure that it's charged properly. Also, because of the 2-3 hours run time, it quite often dies in the middle of a running session.
All in all, I don't think i would like to have a full fleet of battery loco's. Having 1 or 2 battery loco's is a nice option, but i wouldn't want to fully get rid of my track power fleet.
P.s. I don't intend to put anybody off battery power, many people swear by battery power solely. I think it just depends how you like to run your railway, how long your running sessions tend to last and how often you get to run trains (giving you chance to re-charge larger amounts of loco's)
Last year i fitted the Hobbyking R/C system with Li-on batteries into an LGB BoBo diesel. It really is great being able to just flick a switch and having a loco running instantly even on the dirtiest of track. Perfect slow running with no stalling or jerking. BUT, with the loco having 2 motors, even from the powerful battery 2-3 hours running time is MAX. If i'd have known at the time i probably would have chosen a single motor loco to convert instead. Because of this, i find that im cautious with the length/weight of the wagons i run with it.
The Loco takes a good 7 hours to charge, which means i often have to plan ahead as to when i will be wanting to run to ensure that it's charged properly. Also, because of the 2-3 hours run time, it quite often dies in the middle of a running session.
All in all, I don't think i would like to have a full fleet of battery loco's. Having 1 or 2 battery loco's is a nice option, but i wouldn't want to fully get rid of my track power fleet.
P.s. I don't intend to put anybody off battery power, many people swear by battery power solely. I think it just depends how you like to run your railway, how long your running sessions tend to last and how often you get to run trains (giving you chance to re-charge larger amounts of loco's)
Thanks for that Mathew, maybe some people sre over quoting the run times on their locos, if I do convert then it will be that I need at least 8 hours run time from each individual loco, maybe I need to listen and think about the whole subject a bit longer, after all my DCC system is very good.
Graham
Graham
The length of run time is directly relative to the capacity of the batteries. The bigger the capacity (expressed in mah) the longer the run time.
There is a very simple circuit that wires the battery charge socket like an spdt switch. As the trail car auxiliary batteries in a trail car are plugged into the loco the onboard batteries are switched out and only used for light loco running. That way you can have only a small battery pack actually inside the loco but virtually unlimited running with batteries.
Battery R/C is perfectly good for indoor running as well as outdoors.
Whilst the battery R/C equipment is not necessarily expensive per se, adding good quality sound can be.
The biggest disadvantage with stick radios is their size. They do require two hands. However their digital proportional speed control is hard to beat for smoothness of operation. That bulkiness can now be overcome with both the Deltang & RCS DSM2 compatible R/C.
Graham, sending locos half way around the world for fitting batteries and R/C is not a practical consideration.
I suggest you contact my agent David Pritchard at LocoControl http://www.lococontrol.co.uk/page4.htm He is a very competent installer and can offer good advice.
There is a very simple circuit that wires the battery charge socket like an spdt switch. As the trail car auxiliary batteries in a trail car are plugged into the loco the onboard batteries are switched out and only used for light loco running. That way you can have only a small battery pack actually inside the loco but virtually unlimited running with batteries.
Battery R/C is perfectly good for indoor running as well as outdoors.
Whilst the battery R/C equipment is not necessarily expensive per se, adding good quality sound can be.
The biggest disadvantage with stick radios is their size. They do require two hands. However their digital proportional speed control is hard to beat for smoothness of operation. That bulkiness can now be overcome with both the Deltang & RCS DSM2 compatible R/C.
Graham, sending locos half way around the world for fitting batteries and R/C is not a practical consideration.
I suggest you contact my agent David Pritchard at LocoControl http://www.lococontrol.co.uk/page4.htm He is a very competent installer and can offer good advice.
Hi Tony, thanks for that, I will have a go at fitting the inards back into the Goose, and will also contact David ref r/c etc.
I see what you are saying and thank you very much for your time and effort
Graham
I see what you are saying and thank you very much for your time and effort
Graham
GrahamGraham ASH said:
When you say '8 hours run time' - do you actually mean they will actually be moving for the full 8 hours? I tend to have only one loco in motion at any one time during an operating session but that may be a feature of my single track branch line operation. My operating sessions sometimes can last 8 hours, but I'd say even the busiest loco will be actually running for less than half that time. One feature of 2.4gHz technology is that the receivers do not themselves use a lot of power when the loco is stationary.
Rik
Morning Rik,
I would say some, probably 3 locos run for around 5 to 6 hrs, but they dont run solo, they can have up to 6 very heavy log skeles on them, they dont travel far but are ticking over all the time, and use the complete sound inventory from whistle to blowing down.
If I do go r/c I need to ensure that I can get the sounds I already have, dont want to lose any.
Graham
I would say some, probably 3 locos run for around 5 to 6 hrs, but they dont run solo, they can have up to 6 very heavy log skeles on them, they dont travel far but are ticking over all the time, and use the complete sound inventory from whistle to blowing down.
If I do go r/c I need to ensure that I can get the sounds I already have, dont want to lose any.
Graham
GrahamGraham ASH said:
Yes, of course, sound cards drain power as well, so your run times will be reduced. I only came to sound once I converted to battery so I can't really make a comparison.
I'd support the advice you've been given and the conclusion you seem to have reached about converting a couple of locos initially and then evaluating the benefits for yourself. You might reach the stage where you have enough locos to run either a battery session or a DCC session. I moved over to battery gradually - this is the first season I am using solely battery power. I still have a couple of DCC locos in reserve and all the track-based DCC kit still installed - though I am beginning to tot-up how much capital it would realise!
Rik
Hi Graham.
When you say "If I do go r/c I need to ensure that I can get the sounds I already have, don't want to lose any." what sounds are you referring to?
The best non DCC sound system is Phoenix. They have all the basic sounds many of which such as brake squeal can be set up for automatic operation. There are at least 10 that can be selected for manual R/C triggering but the maximum number you can control by R/C are four.
When you say "If I do go r/c I need to ensure that I can get the sounds I already have, don't want to lose any." what sounds are you referring to?
The best non DCC sound system is Phoenix. They have all the basic sounds many of which such as brake squeal can be set up for automatic operation. There are at least 10 that can be selected for manual R/C triggering but the maximum number you can control by R/C are four.
Since I am new at this I don't have any experience with DCC, but I also wanted nice sounds that I can control. I went for the Airwire Convrtr system with Zimo DCC decoders and batteries. I'm still working on setting up my first loco, but it does work a bit like DCC. There seem to be a few gotchas: pressing a function key activates sound for a fixed time and you can't use two sounds in quick succession. I don't know whether this is a limitation of the Airwire itself, the Convrtr, the Zimo or a combination of them. I haven't heard anybody else mentioning this about Airwire as such.
The controller fits into one hand, speed control is with a thumb-knob and I can control several locos from this.
I wanted to have my cake and eat it and it seems I can - with limitations.
There is also the NCE G-wire system, which also allows you to use standard DCC decoders with R/C and batteries. However, wiring this is a little more challenging and nobody could tell me whether it works with the Zimo decoders, which I wanted for the sound.
The controller fits into one hand, speed control is with a thumb-knob and I can control several locos from this.
I wanted to have my cake and eat it and it seems I can - with limitations.
There is also the NCE G-wire system, which also allows you to use standard DCC decoders with R/C and batteries. However, wiring this is a little more challenging and nobody could tell me whether it works with the Zimo decoders, which I wanted for the sound.
Airwire sounds interesting. I found this when browsing about it - a galloping goose conversion with a Phoenix sound card
Food for thought, Graham.
http://www.rhyman.org/articles/a-simple-airwire-g3phoenix-p8-battery-conversion
Rik
Food for thought, Graham.
http://www.rhyman.org/articles/a-simple-airwire-g3phoenix-p8-battery-conversion
Rik
For sounds..
You could use one of the ?mP3? based units (little silver paint-tin thingies) with ambient sounds either end of the exhibition layout.. Perhaps?
Phoenix Sound cards are brilliant, BUT only four triggers (if not DCC) and they are expensive!
Personally, though very early days for myself..
A Playmobil-based loco for 'fast and dirty' running, and DCC for the 'real-deal' seems to be the way to go. - I now need to decide whether to evilBay snipe at Playmobil 'bits' to improve charging and battery connection issues.
Whether a better TX/RX/ESC is worth it, and some-sort of sound..
Happy days, time to fiddle!
You could use one of the ?mP3? based units (little silver paint-tin thingies) with ambient sounds either end of the exhibition layout.. Perhaps?
Phoenix Sound cards are brilliant, BUT only four triggers (if not DCC) and they are expensive!
Personally, though very early days for myself..
A Playmobil-based loco for 'fast and dirty' running, and DCC for the 'real-deal' seems to be the way to go. - I now need to decide whether to evilBay snipe at Playmobil 'bits' to improve charging and battery connection issues.
Whether a better TX/RX/ESC is worth it, and some-sort of sound..
Happy days, time to fiddle!
I think that both Airwire and NCE Gwire do have some compatibility with DCC however since both work at 900Mhz they would not be legal for use in the UK.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Cliff George said:
At the risk of sounding like a fan of necrophilia, bestiality and flagellation, that is exactly why we want the DRC300 so badly..... unfortunately Massoth are not listening!
Anyone know if any other Euro or UK manufacturers are even considering trying to make something similar that would fill this yawning gap in the market?
Jon.
PS: Maybe some enterprising company or individual should try developing it with funding through something like Kickstarter....? For somebody with enough electronics knowledge, surely it can't be THAT hard to do?
I wonder exactly how much actual interest there really is in the DRC300. I would have thought that if interest had been substantial it would be out by now. They already have the hardware but gearing up for production without a guaranteed minimum sales is not something a major manufacturer would consider doing in these finely balanced financial times.
The biggest potential market is in the USA and there are already 2 or 3 makers doing precisely what the DRC300 does.
The biggest potential market is in the USA and there are already 2 or 3 makers doing precisely what the DRC300 does.
I reckon the Euro market (Germany especially) is pretty big, Tony - you've only got to look at the size of ebay.de's G scale section compared with that of UK ebay. My best guess is that they're still having some sort of technical problems with it (either hardware or firmware) and that they have been unable to put enough R&D time in on the project to fix it. A year ago, Peter Ting at Massoth hinted to me that it was very close - but still nothing (and he's now not answering further inquiries about it!) so I can't help thinking that they've run into a block of some kind.
IF it ever happens, the big thing that the DRC300 will offer is the ability to drive your locos by direct R/C from your existing wireless Navigator handsets, so you have all the functionality of regular DCC and a seamless transition to R/C control without having to buy (and learn) new controllers. I'm sure there are a lot of Massoth users here and elsewhere in Europe to whom this sounds very attractive. Plus, as Cliff says, it will be legal for UK/Euro use, unlike the US systems....!
Jon.
IF it ever happens, the big thing that the DRC300 will offer is the ability to drive your locos by direct R/C from your existing wireless Navigator handsets, so you have all the functionality of regular DCC and a seamless transition to R/C control without having to buy (and learn) new controllers. I'm sure there are a lot of Massoth users here and elsewhere in Europe to whom this sounds very attractive. Plus, as Cliff says, it will be legal for UK/Euro use, unlike the US systems....!
Jon.
Hi All, just got back from a very nice Slim Gauge Meeting at Rugby.
Tony , the sounds I want to hear are brake sqealing, whistle,horn, filling with water, engine turning over etc. I just want good, clear sound as I have now.
Yes airwire does sound good, today I also watched dcc being controlled by mobile phone, interesting but rather slow I thought.
As I said earlier, Im going to convert my Goose 4 back to battery and see if that appeals to me for starters, its got a sound card, font know which, and see what happens
Graham
Tony , the sounds I want to hear are brake sqealing, whistle,horn, filling with water, engine turning over etc. I just want good, clear sound as I have now.
Yes airwire does sound good, today I also watched dcc being controlled by mobile phone, interesting but rather slow I thought.
As I said earlier, Im going to convert my Goose 4 back to battery and see if that appeals to me for starters, its got a sound card, font know which, and see what happens
Graham
OK Graham.
Phoenix P8 will do all you want to do.
Did that mobile phone actually control the locos directly? Or was it actually controlling the track-side command station and then the locos via power through the rails?
Jon, yes the Euro market is quite big. However, unlike the USA, battery power is only a miniscule part of that market.
The problem nowadays is any RF products being put on the market need to be globally sale-able to ensure the widest possible market is available. Massoth must be legal in the USA as their Navigators (at least a USA compliant version of them) are being sold there openly. So there is a potential for the DRC300 in the USA. However, there are 2 or 3 similar systems doing virtually the same thing already established on the USA market. Price too would have to be a consideration.
I have never understood why the USA makers only have 900 MHz available. Sure limits their market penetration Worldwide.
On the other, hand Crest chose 2.4 GHz which means what they sell is legal everywhere.
Phoenix P8 will do all you want to do.
Did that mobile phone actually control the locos directly? Or was it actually controlling the track-side command station and then the locos via power through the rails?
Jon, yes the Euro market is quite big. However, unlike the USA, battery power is only a miniscule part of that market.
The problem nowadays is any RF products being put on the market need to be globally sale-able to ensure the widest possible market is available. Massoth must be legal in the USA as their Navigators (at least a USA compliant version of them) are being sold there openly. So there is a potential for the DRC300 in the USA. However, there are 2 or 3 similar systems doing virtually the same thing already established on the USA market. Price too would have to be a consideration.
I have never understood why the USA makers only have 900 MHz available. Sure limits their market penetration Worldwide.
On the other, hand Crest chose 2.4 GHz which means what they sell is legal everywhere.