Changing Over To Battery Control ?

[Graham ASH]

Hi All,
I have been considering for some time the possibilities of changing over to Battery control from Lenz DCC.

At the moment I have 8 locos, of which all would need to be changed over. Of these 7 are Bachmann and the other is a Accucraft Goose. I know nothing about Battery control, the only machine that I have which is on a 2.4 system is a large crane/log loader.

Would I need to strip out most of the existing electrics on the locos ?
Will I be able to use my existing DCC sound decoders or do I need to completely replace ?
What are the costs involved in changing from DCC to Battery power per loco ?
Is it easy enough for me to carry out myself ?

What are the benifits to me of changing from track power to battery power ?

Thanks
Graham

 

[Graham ASH]

OK Ross I will look deaper
thanks
Graham

 

[Cliff George]

Sorry can't help much Graham.

I've been waiting to try out the Massoth DRC300. It is claimed this will allow keeping all DCC features from any manufacturers decoders, while switching to battery power.

Unfortunately this product has been delayed for ages.

Come on Massoth get this product out!!

 

[Robert Howard]

I am also considering the switch like yourself.

It might be bad form to post a link to a blog by another forum member but this site has lots of great advice:
http://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/getting-started-with-battery-power-and.html

Rob

 

[Graham ASH]

Hi Robert,
Thanks for that, dont worry about it being bad form at all, others often graft other sites onto/into here.

I was after some basic advice and costs, and that is what youve given me, so thank you.

I think what I will do is to fit out one of my locos with Battery, and see how it goes, I need to find out how long each of my locos would run if battery powered

Thanks again
Graham

 

[ge_rik]

I am also considering the switch like yourself.

It might be bad form to post a link to a blog by another forum member but this site has lots of great advice:
http://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/getting-started-with-battery-power-and.html

Rob

No, not bad form at all, I take it as a compliment. I feel embarrassed about blowing my own trumpet so happy to let you toot it for me. I'm no expert, just bit the bullet and fumbled my way through - I only hope my scribblings are helpful to someone else. I'm very pleased with the result, though (sorry sound like a born-again evangelist)

Pros - Minimal track cleaning (means I now run trains a lot more often than I used to) - lower overall cost - no need to worry about wiring and electrical continuity (so less track maintenance)
Cons - Finding room for batteries - remembering to charge the batteries - no feedback load control and so locos need to be driven (ie more power up the hills and less power down them)

Not sure about the question of whether DCC sound cards will work with battery power but no doubt there will be someone else here who will know the answer. I've only every used MyLocoSound and Peter Spoerer's DigiSounds cards and only since I went battery powered.

Rik

 

[ge_rik]

What are the costs involved in changing from DCC to Battery power per loco ?
Is it easy enough for me to carry out myself ?

Thanks
Graham

Costs = batteries and r/c equipment.

Quite a few of us on here use the 12v li-ion batteries which can be bought from China for around £10. I've bought seven of these over the past couple of years and only had two duff ones (though I think others have been a lot more successful). I think they now have to be delivered by surface mail as for some reason ??? airlines seem reluctant to carry them.

You could go for more conventional NiMh battery packs (eg from Strikalite) but these are not yet available in the higher capacities that can be achieved with Li-ions and also they self-discharge when stored (unless you buy the more expensive varieties)

2.4gHz R/c equipment is now a heck of a lot cheaper than it used to be and is very reliable. I've opted for Deltang equipment and am very pleased with it, but there are several other alternatives which are available. A Deltang transmitter (as a kit) is can be bought for £21 (or £46 made) and combined receiver/controller will set you back around £30. You also need to buy a switch and an auto-reset fuse for the loco and maybe a recharge socket (overall cost less than £10). If you go for Greg's option (two pegs to which he attaches croc clips) then you can do away with the recharge socket.

So, you could convert a loco to battery power for as little as £10 + £30 + £10 = £50 and buy a transmitter for £21 (which of course can then be used with all your locos). So, overall, around £70 outlay initially.

Rik

 

[Tony Walsham]

Hello Graham.
The reason why you are considering converting to battery R/C is the main benefit for doing it.
I believe it is possible to convert some DCC decoders to battery R/C. I have no experience of that process.

My RCS line is not the first to put the innards of a 2.4 GHz Digital proportional stick radio into a TX handpiece that can fit into your pocket. Deltang R/C has that honour. I am utilising a Deltang TX module in a larger case that permits slightly better range because the antenna is not shrouded by the operators hand. My TX also has 4 x sound trigger buttons the Deltang hand pieces do not have.

Which RCS system that could be best for you does depend on what sort of locos you wish to convert and whether or not they will have sound systems fitted. Some locos have Plug'n'Play ESC's. Others will need rewiring.

 

[Graham ASH]

Hi All,
Thanks for the info so far.
I have a Modular layout in F Scale (1:20.3)which I use both in my shed and also at exhibitions. Where a days running is normally from 10 am to 6 pm - about 8 hours, I can afford to have a couple of locos on charge at the show and would re-charge them over night if it was 2 days or longer.

Currently I have:
A 3 Truck Shay with DCC /sound
A Forney with DCC
A Climax thats the new type and at the moment is still DC
A Heisler with DCC/sound
A Baldwin 2-6-6-2 (not a Mallet) which is DCC
A Railtruck - which at this moment is having a 1 amp Tsunami/sound fitted
Goose Num 4 - which has all the components there to fit it to Battery , even a 2.4 unit

Now I need at least 4 of these locos to be available at any one time to run on my railroad, all would be much better if they had sound, am I assuming correctly that I fit a decoder and sound unit and then add Battery power to the loco ?

I already have 2 x 2.4 ghz units - one runs my fantastic log loader the other has been taken out of the Goose, I could probably fit it all back it given some clues.

Yes Tony, but I am happy with the DCC Lenz system that I have, but would like to get rid of my rail/track power which would probably save me loads of time in the long run.

Im assuming a lot of things here, and in danger of dissapering into a smog of electronic wizardry

I I correct in assuming that I need a 2.4 R/C into each loco ? And do I need a seperate R/c unit to control each and every 2.4 unit ? Or can use something like a Crest unit and elect each loco individually ?
I must add that I know not a lot about R/C / Battery control, but do see it as a almost a must for the future and what Im doing
thanks again and keep the info coming, is there a book or even a magazine that covers the subject
Graham

 

[ge_rik]

I I correct in assuming that I need a 2.4 R/C into each loco ? And do I need a seperate R/c unit to control each and every 2.4 unit ? Or can use something like a Crest unit and elect each loco individually ?
I must add that I know not a lot about R/C / Battery control, but do see it as a almost a must for the future and what Im doing
thanks again and keep the info coming, is there a book or even a magazine that covers the subject
Graham

Hi Graham
The Deltang Tx22 has a selector function which enables it to be bound with 12 different locos - all of which can be selectively controlled. (see http://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/evaluation-of-deltang-radio-control.html )

Alternatively, you can get a standard transmitter or the Deltang Tx20 or Tx21 and have every loco bound to it - you'd then have to make sure you had only one loco at a time switched on.

The Deltang Tx23 can control three locos separately at the same time. You could always bind more locos to it and make sure you have only three locos switched on at any one time.

Rik

BTW - I have no connection with Deltang other than as a satisfied customer.

 

[Tony Walsham]

Hi Graham.

A 3 Truck Shay with DCC /sound

The DCC sound is not triggerable by anything other than a DCC system. That means you either have to stick with DCC and find a way of battery R/C'ing it or rip out the DCC sound decoder and select something else such as Phoenix to go with an appropriate ESC. The Shay has plenty of room for batteries in the second tender.

A Forney with DCC

Same scenario except there is very little room for batteries inside the Forney tender. You may have to revert to a trail car to carry the battery pack.

A Climax thats the new type and at the moment is still DC

Same problem with space for the batteries.
I have done a couple of them and fitted a Phoenix up inside the oil bunker.

A Heisler with DCC/sound

Much more room for batteries. Straightforward installation.

A Baldwin 2-6-6-2 (not a Mallet) which is DCC

I assume you mean the Bachmann 2-6-6-2 Tank loco. Room for batteries etc.

A Railtruck - which at this moment is having a 1 amp Tsunami/sound fitted

Fairly easy to convert. The drive may need modifying to make it reliable.

Goose Num 4 - which has all the components there to fit it to Battery , even a 2.4 unit

2.4 GHz R/C is actually very small. so it will be easy to take it back.

You would only need one 2.4 Ghz TX handpiece to control al your locos, either one at a time or if speed matched, ganged together as one unit.

Even though it is 2.4 GHz, you can only use Crest RX/ESC's with the Revolution TX.

So, you are faced with making the choice of sticking with DCC and finding a way of battery R/C'ing the locos.
OR;
Scrapping the entire DCC and going with 2.4 GHz of some type and adding a suitable sound system.

Either way will be expensive.

 

[Graham ASH]

Hi Tony
Thanks for all of that,its beginning to make sense. I think the best thing to for me at the moment, is to convert the Goose no 4 back to Battery/RC and see how that works, I assume that I can use my 2.4 ghz control unit to test it once its done ?

At the moment I would like to definately go Battery/Rc, - you say that its expensive but is it ? I have 2 Lenz systems, both pretty new in a Lenz 100 set and a Lenz 90 set, I also have a Lenz transformer for each set. Additionally I would be able to strip out all my decoders and sound units and get some of the money back on them
Graham

 

[Zerogee]

Like Cliff, I am waiting sort-of-patiently for the DRC300 from Massoth - though I'm holding out less and less hope of ever seeing it as the years go by....
However, looking at similar systems that ARE actually available, doesn't the Crest Revolution work in a broadly similar way? I have no experience of it, but I know some folks on here have used it, hopefully one of them will chip (no pun intended!) in with some advice?
Trainline45 also have a direct-radio system that I think will run on either track power or batteries - the little ultra-basic version, with a keyfob-sized hand controller, is currently on offer from Modell-land for around forty quid - so might be considered cheap enough to get one to play around with?

Jon.

 

[Madman]

A topic like this one will generate responses faster than greased lightning. I haven't read every response in depth, but breezed over them to get a sense of others opinions. Here is the guy I used, and still do, when I converted to battery power. I think you will find him very helpful.

http://www.gscalegraphics.net/

 

[Tony Walsham]

Whether you can use the 2.4 GHz R/C TX with the Goose depends on what 2.4 GHz RX is in it. It is usual that you can only use the same brand 2.4 GHz TX and RX together.
Plus you must have a suitable ESC fitted as well.

Three of your locos have Plug'n'Play sockets that will make life much easier to install the ESC's. Assuming of course the PnP sockets are still in them.
If it was me I would first of all be taking a look at what sort of batteries you can use.
I prefer NiCd but as I understand it they are no longer available in Europe. Beware of NiMh they self discharge at a prodigious rate when not being used unless you have the LSD type hybrids. However be wary of them too. The AA size are fine for low current use but drawing much more than 1 amp will shorten their life too.
That leaves Li-Ion and LiPo. I cannot be of much help there but many people are using Li-Ion successfully. They can be charged in situ, unlike LiPo which MUST be removed for recharging in a ceramic container in case of self immolation.

Then you might consider exactly what you want the R/C to do.
Apart from the obvious speed and direction control;
Do you want built in directional constant brightness lights?
Do you want sound system triggers? If so what sound system to use. It will have to be a non DCC type to gain access to the trigger functions. Phoenix P8 is by far the best of them.

 

[Zerogee]

Do some radio-control ESCs (Electronic Speed Controllers) output smooth DC of a varying voltage, or do they all use pulse-width-modulated DC?

This is completely off the top of my head, as I've never looked very deeply into RC control, but IF you had an ESC that produced smooth DC (if such a thing exists) and you fed its output directly into the track power inputs of a DCC decoder (having isolated said decoder from the track of course), would the decoder "see" this as an analogue input and work from it in the same way as it would if running on analogue track power? As far as I can see, this SHOULD mean that sound decoders would work the same way as they would when running on analogue - ie: you'd get the "running" sounds and maybe the whistle/horn toot on startup, though you wouldn't have any kind of actual control over the rest of the sounds.

Is this feasible with current equipment or have I got it all totally wrong?

Jon.

 

[Tony Walsham]

As far as I know there are no on board ESC's made that emit smooth linear filtered DC.
You could try filtering the PWM output but you run the risk of overheating the FET's which do not like the amount capacitance across the output required to end up with a linear DC voltage.
Crest do make a rather large pwm to DC pcb that would do the job but it takes up a lot of space.
Sure the resulting smooth DC could be used with a DCC sound decoder but then there is no way to trigger the sounds.
There is really no way around it.

 

[Graham ASH]

Ok then Tony, I know little about R/C . Whats the best way to go about things as your miles away. I think I would like to try Rc, therefore I dont mind doing the work as long as you can tell me how to do it.

I think the best way myself is to fit R/C and battery control to one of my Plug and Play locos, say the Climax or Baldwin 2-6-6-2. Can you supply the items that I need and tell me how to fit them at that distance, I will willingly pay you for your advice and the items that I need, I see no point in sending you my locos. Or shall I find a local R/C man who can give me the same advice and supply the items, or is this way going to be too expensive to do, or can you not supply the items
Graham

 

[Doug]

There are lots of different R/C systems for battery running- Tony's RC, Timpdon, Peter Yatton, Peter Spoerer, Cliff Barker and quite a few others too. Some use the aircraft style 2.4 GHz transmitters, some use there own proprietory mini transmitter.

Once you have bought the Transmitter, the costs reduces as receivers are a lot cheaper. Some people build a battery/receiver wagon that they then attach to any of their locos.

The difficult bit is fitting the batteries in a loco!

 

[Graham ASH]

Yes Doug, I understand about fitting the batteries into locos. I think the only real problem locos will be my Climac and Forney, the rest should be manageable. Tommorow I am going to the Slim Gauge Circle meeting and will hopefully be able to talk to someone about the whole concept of r/c. I hope it will be simpler than people are making it out to be.
I currently have my r/c crane and am suprised by how good it is, I can load logs with it which the type of realism that im after throughout my layout.
As I said earlier perhaps the best thing I can do is put my Goose 4 back together and see how I do with that.
Graham