Biko Saddle Tank Loco Questions

Madman

Madman

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So I see, on Ebay and from Black Forest Hooby, Piko saddle tank locos ranging in price from under $200.00 to over $400.00. When these saddle tankers first came out I had one for a brief time and wasn't thrilled with it. Have they been improved upon ? Are there certain numbers to avoid ? What else do I need to know ?
 
There are some rather 'nasty' (cheap?) Piko starter-set loco's about.. They tend to make Playmobil look positively professional! YMMV, of course.
They have chunky plastic rods, and big plastic push-in pins to hold them. Quite often appear in Chr***mas livery.

I have fettled a few, but they have passed through several sets of hands by the time they get to me.. Quite often (IMHO) they are not worth the cost of my time and the spare parts.

The newer, more prototypical, stuff seems a lot better quality.
 
The first Piko starter set (38100-Union Pacific) had curious issues for sure and this one was what G-Scalers would consider highly mass-produced, as the first 1,000 sets arrived in San Diego before the manager in America got to see what they did. Unlike most manufacturers, Piko fixed the problem. Any consumer who called in, for 7 years, got the parts they needed if they asked. (I have one of the locos, and still run it using the updated motor box.) That was the first North American product, and was made over 10 years ago.

The main issue with the set (aside from producing the wrong yellow on the caboose) was someone in production - not the American folks - decided that they wanted these to be the toughest garden trains available. So they decided to powder coat the wheels. Now, powder coating is quite strong... but it is not the best for electrical contact on brass track. It works ok, but was not a smart move. Some folks wrote Piko off because of that mistake a decade ago.

I believe the loco shape and tooling is the still the same. I was told the owner wanted fewer details and parts to apply on the first product because of worry over how they would sell. Future models have gotten more and more details. (The Camelbacks look pretty good! I have a 25-Tonner on order which is expected in mid-November.)

Piko went from that, umm... interesting beginning, to what they are today. Most manufacturers, if they produce much of anything, have lowered standards and are choosing to do so in order to save a few bucks on their costs, while raising the price to us. Piko has continually improved things so that they can honestly say they have the best brass track on the market and many other things. (They had some emails that went out explaining how they can say that... They were VERY informative if you know what else is on the market!) The price for their products is very reasonable when you consider what others are charging for similar items.

Piko is bringing new products to market when every other G manufacturer seems to be faltering or dying. (Or that is what it seems like.) I have heard many people say Piko is the new LGB in that Piko has taken the place of LGB in their minds... based on design and quality. I have not met an honest person who can say that Marklin/LGB product is the same as it was even 10 years ago. (It is NOT.) So maybe they have something secret going on in Germany at Piko, but either way they have shown to be an upstanding company.

(I happen to own a good amount of Piko stuff and have never had any problem.)
 
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I think it was more of a chemical blackening rather than powder coat. My Rotcamel still suffers
 
I posted similar questions on Large-scale.com. Over there I mentioned the driver size difference on the two locos I am looking at. The less expensive model, without sound, has smaller drivers. The B&O model has larger, to me more attractive drivers.

B&O.jpgs-l500.jpg

Would anyone care to comment on the performance of either model ? I had, what I believe to be the earlier model mentioned by 1 to 3 above, many years ago. I was not happy with it's performance and sold it, cheap.
 
stockers said:
I think it was more of a chemical blackening rather than powder coat. My Rotcamel still suffers
Click to expand...

Yes, the blackening of the wheel treads was a huge error..... I have a Kamel like Alan's, and mine only runs OK because it has a big power buffer installed. The newer plated wheels are a great improvement.

Jon.
 
Aristo came out with "sintered" drivers, which appeared to have black paint on the treads, but upon closer inspection, the surface was more "granular" with black between the "grains" of metal if you will.

AML, Aristo, Piko and others have done this... sintering is a cheaper process than casting and much cheaper than cnc machining, not to mention the right way, a metal tire pressed onto the wheel casting.

Sintering starts with metal powder which is then pressed into a mold and heated. The theory is the metal particles in the powder weld together into a solid. The result I have seen in the G scale industry is a granular finish that does not stay clean and gives poor power pickup.

So, perhaps these were sintered wheels.

Greg
 
Hi all,
Nope... they actually powder coated them. :) It was quite an issue, based on some engineer who thought "I have this great idea" and did it, while never talking to the train folks. I was told the manager in America was quite unhappy, but had 1,000 already in hand when he saw what they had done without talking to him. (I have talked to him a few times.)

As for gears... yes the ST locos have two different gearboxes depending on which one you get. You can get either one from Piko (I swapped for the better/larger one) as they have them readily available in San Diego when I called. They have two versions based on whether the ST is a budget model, or upgraded. (guessing the starter sets have the budget version, but I have used both with no issues. However the nicer one pulls more.) I think they use the nicer gearbox on the newer UP saddletank as well since it is a "fancier" loco with digital sound.
 
Again: you are saying they powder coated the TREADS of the loco?

I have NEVER heard of any powder coating that would be conductive enough for the power to flow through.

I've been in the electronics industry for a long time, and I know about the EMI and static dissipating coatings, but I cannot believe that they used one of these... but it would give terrible results...

I know many people have mistaken the residue from the sintering process as paint... many many people have claimed it was paint..

I'll ask Jonathan next time, Piko America president... so please, WHO is your source?

Greg
 
Greg,
Yes... I am saying powder coating is the "bright idea" they had. Sintering is not necessarily a finishing process... Powder coating is. The idea is similar, but they did powder coat the wheels. (Incredibly tough, and even with sandpaper would have taken forever to get off, hence most people chose to get a new gearbox.)

I do not believe my credentials are necessary for this conversation... but I know Jonathan well.
 
Never said sintering was a finishing process... said that often in the manufacture there is a coating left on the outside that is mistaken for paint. I'm pretty darn clear in what I say, so please do not extrapolate.

I'd like to know who the heck you are since you don't give your real name, and apparently you are an authority on Piko products.

Since you won't answer the question about conductive or not, this conversation is no longer of any educational value... it's "ha ha I know something you don't".

OK, you win, without any supporting documentation..

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Never said sintering was a finishing process... said that often in the manufacture there is a coating left on the outside that is mistaken for paint. I'm pretty darn clear in what I say, so please do not extrapolate.

I'd like to know who the heck you are since you don't give your real name, and apparently you are an authority on Piko products.

Since you won't answer the question about conductive or not, this conversation is no longer of any educational value... it's "ha ha I know something you don't".

OK, you win, without any supporting documentation..

Greg
Click to expand...
I have tried to discuss everything, including my interests, in a non-confrontational manner. It seems I offend you when I chime in for some reason. (On multiple forum posts and topics.) You are welcome to send me a PM message... I cannot send one to you, based on your account settings.
 
As per the original post... yes, Piko has two gearboxes for the starter set Saddletank locos. The images in above posts show the size difference. The basic sets without sound seem to have the smaller gearbox. The individually sold locos like the B&O and UP that have DCC appear to be the nicer/larger ones... the Rio Grande is not the "Cadillac"/upgraded larger one.

I have both versions of the loco. Both seem to pull great... though my original UP starter set got the upgraded gearbox and is not in stock condition anymore.
 
Formal apology to 1to3:

You are indeed completely correct, the closest translation to what happened is indeed "powder coating"... and apparently it is still done, but then the treads are machined (and other places) and that removes the coating, which also serves to true up the zinc alloy castings.

By the way a container of the new 25 Tonners left the factory in Sonneberg today. Look for them stateside in about 5 weeks.

Sorry I doubted you...

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Formal apology to 1to3:

You are indeed completely correct, the closest translation to what happened is indeed "powder coating"... and apparently it is still done, but then the treads are machined (and other places) and that removes the coating, which also serves to true up the zinc alloy castings.

By the way a container of the new 25 Tonners left the factory in Sonneberg today. Look for them stateside in about 5 weeks.

Sorry I doubted you...

Greg
Click to expand...

An officer and a gentleman :clap::clap:
 
Good on you for the apology, Greg, all too rare in the online world these days.....
The discussion has certainly raised some interesting points - I had assumed that Piko had gone over to plated wheels, didn't know that the new "shiny" treads are machined, but looking at a brand new Piko 4-wheel motor block sitting here on my desk (bought from Bertram Heyn at Llanfair, to power the centre-cab O&K MV9 diesel kit I got from him) it does indeed appear that the outer face of each wheel is coated with a matt black finish of some sort (presumably the powder coating as discussed), which has then been machined off the tread surface and the whole back face of the wheel.... not quite sure why the back of the wheel has been done, as there is no sign of any plunger-type wheelback pickup as per LGB. I assume that the Piko block has internal pickups running on the axles?

Oblique and off-topic question, though still relating to the Piko motor block - anyone know what kind of push-on connectors to use for the four terminal pins on said motor block? The LGB/Massoth type won't fit, because each pin is recessed into a semi-circular cutout in the top of the gearbox housing - and anyway the pins are very close together, so even if the usual push-ons would physically fit they would almost certainly end up touching each other (oo-er....).
If anyone has used one of these blocks on a DCC-equipped conversion or scratchbuild, I'd be keen to know what you have used.....

Jon.
 
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Zerogee said:
Good on you for the apology, Greg, all too rare in the online world these days.....
The discussion has certainly raised some interesting points - I had assumed that Piko had gone over to plated wheels, didn't know that the new "shiny" treads are machined, but looking at a brand new Piko 4-wheel motor block sitting here on my desk (bought from Bertram Heyn at Llanfair, to power the centre-cab O&K MV9 diesel kit I got from him) it does indeed appear that the outer face of each wheel is coated with a matt black finish of some sort (presumably the powder coating as discussed), which has then been machined off the tread surface and the whole back face of the wheel.... not quite sure why the back of the wheel has been done, as there is no sign of any plunger-type wheelback pickup as per LGB. I assume that the Piko block has internal pickups running on the axles?

Oblique and off-topic question, though still relating to the Piko motor block - anyone know what kind of push-on connectors to use for the four terminal pins on said motor block? The LGB/Massoth type won't fit, because each pin is recessed into a semi-circular cutout in the top of the gearbox housing - and anyway the pins are very close together, so even if the usual push-ons would physically fit they would almost certainly end up touching each other (oo-er....).
If anyone has used one of these blocks on a DCC-equipped conversion or scratchbuild, I'd be keen to know what you have used.....

Jon.
Click to expand...
Had a situation w/broken connector wires, and until Piko magnamously rectified it, I found some suitably sized brass tubing that fit snugly over the pins, soldered wires to the top, and insulated the top ends w/shrink tubing. Sorry I don’t know the brass tube diameter.
 
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