Bachmann C-19

PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
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But then, how many times does the indicator in your car tick before the relay fails?
Depends if it is the 'little old lady' who never cancels it??

That component is designed for that purpose.. :nerd::)
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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"However, standing on the end of the gangplank while dispensing this wisdom - I suspect that you wouldn't hear bounce because the chuff is largely dispensed by capacitors, (one of George's mods was to shorten the over-long hiss on the Annie sound with a heavier capacitor).

As to rounds per minute, and lifetime expectancy ................... ahem.

But then, how many times does the indicator in your car tick before the relay fails? Yeah, I know, probably not used that much of you drive a Beemer, but most average cars use them on a reasonably regular basis "


Well, it's speculation if you could hear the bounce or not, shortening the chuff would seem to make any bounce MORE evident, but that is my guess.

In terms of wear on the relay, one trip around the layout would probably result in almost a year's wear on your turn signal indicator... think about it. :)

I know people who have put the chuff on a relay, and most had the relays fail.

Greg
 
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Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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"
However, standing on the end of the gangplank while dispensing this wisdom - I suspect that you wouldn't hear bounce because the chuff is largely dispensed by capacitors, (one of George's mods was to shorten the over-long hiss on the Annie sound with a heavier capacitor).

As to rounds per minute, and lifetime expectancy ................... ahem.

But then, how many times does the indicator in your car tick before the relay fails? Yeah, I know, probably not used that much of you drive a Beemer, but most average cars use them on a reasonably regular basis "

Well, it's speculation if you could hear the bounce or not, shortening the chuff would seem to make any bounce MORE evident.

One trip around the layout would probably result in almost a year's wear on your turn signal indicator... think about it.

Greg
I was thinking that a capacitor's action would reduce the bounce.

Sharrafter get a calculator to check on chuffs per garden circuit - but you've probably beaten me to it :p

However, using my friend Google, I see that there are solid state alternatives to real relays :think::think::think: which might be where we're headed - then I'll have some Ferrari tyres on my VW Beetle >:)>:)>:)>:)
 
Greg Elmassian

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yep, SS relay might be a good choice, but a bit more expensive, and I am not sure they can have an independent ground, but maybe you can tie the grounds of the loco and the sound board..

bounces are hard to get rid of with a cap, you might be affecting the chuff once again... but the bounce is not the same as electrical noise, like a .1 mfd cap would handle.

Will be interested in your experiment.

(ss relay maybe like this: Kyoto Electric KF0602D DC-to-DC Solid State Relay, 32 Volt, DC Input, 2 Amp, 4-Pin, 1.4"L x 0.3"W x 0.9"H: Electronic Relays: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific )

Greg
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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yep, SS relay might be a good choice, but a bit more expensive, and I am not sure they can have an independent ground, but maybe you can tie the grounds of the loco and the sound board..

bounces are hard to get rid of with a cap, you might be affecting the chuff once again... but the bounce is not the same as electrical noise, like a .1 mfd cap would handle.

Will be interested in your experiment.

(ss relay maybe like this: Kyoto Electric KF0602D DC-to-DC Solid State Relay, 32 Volt, DC Input, 2 Amp, 4-Pin, 1.4"L x 0.3"W x 0.9"H: Electronic Relays: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific )

Greg
If you're prepared to wait 3 weeks, you can get one for £2.83 from Hong Kong >:)
 
beavercreek

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But then, how many times does the indicator in your car tick before the relay fails? Yeah, I know, probably not used that much of you drive a Beemer, but most average cars use them on a reasonably regular basis
:punch::punch:
 
Greg Elmassian

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Ahh a challenge!

36" should be the driver diameter, or circumference of 113 inches, or the circumference is in 1:20.3 is 5.57 inches

with 4 chuffs per revolution, that is 1 relay click every 1.4 inches.... so 1 foot on your layout is 168 clicks of the relay, a scale mile is 260 feet, so 4,368 clicks for a scale mile... run for an hour at 25 scale miles per hour you have 109,000 clicks

a turn signal relay normally is between 1 and 2 seconds per click, let's pick 1.5.... so 40 clicks a minute, and if you are sitting at a light for 3 minutes you have 120 clicks...

I think you can see that the relay in the locomotive will get properly exercised and will easily outstrip your flasher relay

run your train for an hour a day and your have to sit with your flasher for 5 hours for the same number of clicks.

So pity your poor mechanical relay if you choose to use one, it will probably commit suicide. :):)

Greg
 
beavercreek

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When I put the LGB Sumpter sound cards into my Annie tenders I used a hall sensor system with eight magnets (each pair with a north/south pole for switch on/switch off for the sensor) on one of the tender wheels.

The hall sensor and magnets cost about £1.50 per tender.
The system needed a 5v supply from the board.

117701_b5d18c47fbc0e88b7e454e1ebf1627e4.jpg
 
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Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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Ahh a challenge!

36" should be the driver diameter, or circumference of 113 inches, or the circumference is in 1:20.3 is 5.57 inches

with 4 chuffs per revolution, that is 1 relay click every 1.4 inches.... so 1 foot on your layout is 168 clicks of the relay, a scale mile is 260 feet, so 4,368 clicks for a scale mile... run for an hour at 25 scale miles per hour you have 109,000 clicks

a turn signal relay normally is between 1 and 2 seconds per click, let's pick 1.5.... so 40 clicks a minute, and if you are sitting at a light for 3 minutes you have 120 clicks...

I think you can see that the relay in the locomotive will get properly exercised and will easily outstrip your flasher relay

run your train for an hour a day and your have to sit with your flasher for 5 hours for the same number of clicks.

So pity your poor mechanical relay if you choose to use one, it will probably commit suicide. :):)

Greg
No need for drastic action sir, I did a bit of research on the little gizzmo that you posted, and we're back to the optocoupler from the Aristo slope back tender thread - now I understand what the optocoupler does :nerd::nerd:

I'm obviously a quick learner :p:p so I wondered if your mate George needed any help with his rockets :emo::emo::emo:
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
22,483
165
Tamworth, Staffs.
Ahh a challenge!

36" should be the driver diameter, or circumference of 113 inches, or the circumference is in 1:20.3 is 5.57 inches

with 4 chuffs per revolution, that is 1 relay click every 1.4 inches.... so 1 foot on your layout is 168 clicks of the relay, a scale mile is 260 feet, so 4,368 clicks for a scale mile... run for an hour at 25 scale miles per hour you have 109,000 clicks

a turn signal relay normally is between 1 and 2 seconds per click, let's pick 1.5.... so 40 clicks a minute, and if you are sitting at a light for 3 minutes you have 120 clicks...

I think you can see that the relay in the locomotive will get properly exercised and will easily outstrip your flasher relay

run your train for an hour a day and your have to sit with your flasher for 5 hours for the same number of clicks.

So pity your poor mechanical relay if you choose to use one, it will probably commit suicide. :):)

Greg
;) The devil makes work for the idle, enquiring mind! ;):p:giggle::giggle:

The sort of 'daft' calculation I would do!! :rolleyes::nod::nod:
 
Greg Elmassian

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It was very fun, I made a guess, but decided to work the math (maths) to see if my guess was founded in fact. I've seen people try to pulse the fan in their smoke generators with a relay too, and that burned the relay up really quick, compounding the problem with contact erosion from BEMF from the fan motor.

Greg
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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No need for drastic action sir, I did a bit of research on the little gizzmo that you posted, and we're back to the optocoupler from the Aristo slope back tender thread - now I understand what the optocoupler does :nerd::nerd:

I'm obviously a quick learner :p:p so I wondered if your mate George needed any help with his rockets :emo::emo::emo:
I'll leave George Schreyer to sort out the rockets ;);)

So I bought a MOC3021 optocoupler and, because the spec says the feed voltage is 1.5v, I put a 68 ohm resistor in line with one of the feeds as the voltage I had previously measured on the mother board across the sensor / ground terminals was 7.5v.

However, I ain't gettin' nothin'.

I changed the feeds around in case I had got the wrong polarity going to the optocoupler (I'd originally wired the 'ground' terminal to the cathode terminal) but still nuffin'.

If I disconnect the loco wiring, I get a chuff when I turn the controller on - and that's all I can get.

So, to re-cap.

From terminals W left and W right on the Bachmann tender motherboard we have a rectifier.

This is then wired to a voltage control unit which was set at 8.75v when the controller was kicking out 20v to the (test) track

+ve and -ve go to the Annie sound board.

From terminals J1-7 GND and Chuff sensor on the Bachmann tender motherboard we take two wires to terminals 1 & 2 of the optocoupler, one wire going through the 68 ohm resistor.

From terminals 4 & 6 on the optocoupler two wires got to the Annie soundboard chuff activator connections.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm :wondering::wondering::wondering::wondering::wondering::wondering:

Might be my turn to go and shoot myself :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

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chuffin baffled
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Tamworth, Staffs.
chuffin baffled
If done correctly.. Can greatly enhance the musicality of the sound.. ;):nerd::giggle:

I have lost the 'thread', on the elektrickery front, on this one.. But a niggle about normally-open, or normally-closed contacts comes to mind? - You may also find it is actually the 'edge' (transition from + to -, or vice-versa) that actually triggers the 'chuff'?? :think::nerd:

I'll let John jump-in.. He is across this one, more than I..
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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If done correctly.. Can greatly enhance the musicality of the sound.. ;):nerd::giggle:

I have lost the 'thread', on the elektrickery front, on this one.. But a niggle about normally-open, or normally-closed contacts comes to mind? - You may also find it is actually the 'edge' (transition from + to -, or vice-versa) that actually triggers the 'chuff'?? :think::nerd:

I'll let John jump-in.. He is across this one, more than I..
Yep, the Bachmann Annie board operates on the easiest of all triggers - you have four bars across the axle with two contact strips, and they close the circuit 4 times per revolution; Connie is the same: seeemples.

But this sensor stuff is confusing :emo::emo::emo:

It may be a milliamp problem - or lack of :mask::mask:
 
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John S

John S

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Hmm!, this is a Triac optocoupler?, mainly for AC based applications.
Waiting for bits to construct a test rig, will get back soonest.
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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Hmm!, this is a Triac optocoupler?, mainly for AC based applications.
Waiting for bits to construct a test rig, will get back soonest.
Hmmm - it didn't say that when I first looked at it, but I have since seen a reference to that.
 
Greg Elmassian

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Using a resistor to drop voltage is a time-honored method for a device with constant current.

dropping 6 volts through the resistor directly states that you have .088 amps through the circuit, i.e. unless the optocoupler is a CONSTANT 88 milliampere load, then you are NOT regulating the voltage to 1.5 volts (and for that matter are you sure your 7.5 voltage is also CONSTANT?

So, you are desiring the optocoupler to be an isolated switch.

so, the absolute max rating on the "transmitting" diode in the 3021 is 60 milliamperes. If your voltage reading is correct, you should have already blown this diode up. It's and LED, so you need to calculate the CURRENT in the transmitting diode, not the voltage, just like an LED headlight.

Once past that, your next hurdle is that the receiving side inside is indeed a triac, which will not turn on and off with DC, used for AC only.

So, if you want to use an optoisolator, you need a different component.

Regards, Greg
 
Neil Robinson

Neil Robinson

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If you back to the configuration in post number 10 where you state you got it to work with a 9V supply in the tender, does shorting the chuff wires to each other still produce a chuff as before?